Viki Gambino Mid 4
Originally uploaded by chrismaverick.
so, I’ve actually been thinking about this for a few weeks. Ever since the lovely and talented beststephi told me about an article she read about appropriate clothing to be worn in schools. That got me thinking about a lot of issues regarding clothing, and the choices people make and when it is appropriate to make those choices.
So everyone knows how fond of makeovers and dress-up parties I am. So it’s not really surprising that I think that clothes are pretty important. But I know a lot of people like to say that they just don’t care about clothes. I have to admit. I don’t really understand that sentiment. If you don’t care about clothes, then why not be a nudist? Or why put any effort into getting dressed at all? Why do you even pay attention to make sure your socks match?
I know so many people who claim they don’t even like shopping. That doesn’t make any sense to me at all. Really, I’m not gay. I swear.
Steph and I have had this ongoing discussion about what is appropriate to wear to where. Is it ok to dress sexy to work? What about to school? Ok, I might admit that the Viki Gambino picture in this post might be a bit out of range, but for instance, I never understood women who try to dress like men because they think that no one will take them seriously if they look hot or express any sexuality or femininity. Or men who think that it doesn’t matter if they look like shit every day. I actually take people much more seriously if they attempt to be attractive on a daily basis.
Similarly I find it odd when parents won’t let their daughter (or son) pierce their ears. Where I come from, they put holes in little girls ears when they’re infants. How old is old enough for a girl (or boy) to make that decision? What about wearing make-up? Or getting tattoos? I think my little sister got her first tattoo when she was like 15.
So what do people think? How important is dressing up? How much freedom should kids have in deciding what they can wear to school. What’s appropriate to wear to work? Do you think less of people who are sexy? More? Do clothes make the man?
Thinking about all this has got me realizing that i haven’t actually done a makeover in a while. So who’s up for one. As of Friday the 14th, I’m unemployed again, so I should have plenty of time on my hands. Let’s go shopping. Also, Jammy Jam is nearly upon us (july 29th), so if any women want my expertise in helping them pick out lingerie so they can win the exciting and valuable prizes, I am of course available for that as well. 
I care about clothes. Especially at work. I try to stick to wearing classics to work; quite a few of the people I have worked with can look at you and size up a) which season of which year you bought your outfit b) at which store you bought it and c) how much you spent on it. This is especially true if you are wearing something colorful or faddish. Under those circumstances, black is a relatively safe choice, so I wear a lot of black. I usually wear pants to work but not really in an effort to look masculine, mostly because they are just easier. I’ll usually put on black pants and a tailored blouse or shirt. On days I have meetings with clients I try for a suit. Maybe. Usually no jewelry unless I woke up early enough to think of it. While this all probably doesn’t sound very feminine, I think I usually do end up looking feminine considering I usually buy clothes that emphasize the waistline, plus I usually wear high heels & makeup.
Whether it’s OK to dress sexy for work, well, that totally depends on a lot of different variables: where you work, how you want to be perceived, etc. At the time I worked in an upholstery fabric warehouse, one of my co-workers used to dress extremely sexy. She put up with a lot of wolf whistles and stares from the guys who worked in the warehouse. It plainly made her uncomfortable, and I overheard her more than once say things like “Don’t whistle at me, I’m not a dog”.
It’s funny, I was going to post a question in my livejournal asking opinions whether good looking people get hired ahead of everyone else. I think there might be something to it, what do you guys think?
As for the questions about kids…well…I have no idea. Ask me again when I have some! Haha.
See, the thing is people always say that its wrong to discriminate based on looks. I think that’s just plain silly. Would anyone ever say its wrong to discriminate based on intelligence. I’m not going to say that looks are more important than intelligence (though in some jobs it may be). But if two people with similar qualifications, similar intelligence and similar experience have interviewed for the same job, which one are you going to hire, the one with the nice clothes, in good shape and well manicured, or the one that is fat, horribly scarred and has mismatch socks and a dirty t-shirt on.
I’m squarely of the opinion that one should use whatever they have to get ahead. Appearance is one of those things. As is intelligence. Its pretty uncontroversial to think that people should constantly strive to make themselves more intelligent. Why wouldn’t you strive to make yourself better looking too?
As for the whistling and catcalls and such, I think that is a gut-wrench reaction that a lot of women have. They say “its inappropriate for men to be treating me that way, if I dress down the harassment will stop.” What they fail to realize is that men are a simple and instinct driven gender. We are not possessed of great intelligence. Men will be just as negatively insulting if you look bad as we will positively if you look good (she just may not notice). And we’re not THAT stupid. Dressing like a boy isn’t going to make guys not notice that a woman has a nice rack. It’s just that instead of thinking “GODDAMN! Look at those titties!” we’re going to think something like “GODDAMN! Why does she cover up those titties?” We’re pretty predictable, really.
It’s a matter of degree, though. I certainly don’t dress sexily for work. I don’t look like a boy, either, even when I just wear a t-shirt and jeans. I’ve got boobs. I’ve got hips. (Really I do!!!!) They are noticable – especially given that a lot of women’s t-shirts these days are not the big baggy unisex t-shirts of concerts and popular attractions but actually have some shape to them, and it is impossible to buy a pair of jeans that are not low- to ultra-super-buttcrack-low-rise.
Dressing in a feminine but not sexy way eliminates all but the most neanderthal of men from hooting. What they’re thinking (but not saying) is their own business.
obviously, its easier to point out the extremes. My point wasn’t so much to say that you had to be as sexy as possible. My point wasn’t even to say that you weren’t allowed to be masculine as possible. I’m more wondering how much effort people put into things and why? Ad what they think is appropriate.
You’re a school teacher, for instance. Ignoring the rules of your school. How do you feel about kids (male or female) wearing tight or revealing clothing? What about insulting T-shirts? Or gang colors?
Haven’t I posted on this already, or had a long discussion about it with you on IM? Don’t I deserve some kind of credit in the original post? :p
When it comes to school clothing, I’m very conservative. Someone else said something about being comfortable and making those around you comfortable. Not happy – comfortable. To me, our school dress code does that. Even though you told me to disregard it, I really can’t because if I were to write a dress code, this is the one I would write. Clothing must cover the student from shoulders to 4-6 inches above the knee with no gaps. No headwear, no expensive jewelry, no gang apparel, no depictions of illegal activity (booze, smoking, drugs), no tattoos (?!?!), nothing “designed to cause undue attention to the wearer” (I think this means spandex). I’m for it.
Gang colors are pretty much impossible for me to determine. The boys all like wearing massively oversized solid-color t-shirts with matching baseball caps and I really don’t know what gangs have what colors. I’m more concerned about gang tags on my walls and furniture than gang colors.
I don’t want to see my students’ skin. I don’t want to see anyone’s cleavage at work. It grosses me out when my girls dress like hoochiemamas in the tightest possible t-shirts and jeans so low I see their butt cleavage when they sit down. I hate the anti-law and Bugs-Bunny-doing-pot t-shirts. I think they’re rude and uncouth and I am shocked that parents let their kids out of the house like this.
I know many of my kids go to school not to learn but to see and be seen. That’s a cultural difference between me and them. However, I am a teacher and I believe school is a place for learning, including learning how to get people to take you seriously. My kids know how to get their friends to take them seriously, but their friends will probably not be the ones hiring them in the future. I do think they need to learn the behaviors that will get them closer their dreams. Learning how to dress is one of those behaviors.
You said you were against school uniforms because they quench individuality. Bah. You wanna be original? Say something original, do something original, overwhelm me by doing something that shows you don’t follow the herd. Most clothing follows a herd; that is why it is designed, marketed and sold in the first place. That said, I do applaud kids who follow a different herd than the one everyone else is following. I adore my little goths and punks for daring to be different from the masses.
As a teacher in NYC I don’t have a dress code. I must come to school dressed. However, I do follow the student dress code because I think it is reasonable to expect any professional (except sex professionals) to cover him or herself from the shoulders to 4-6 inches above the knee with no gaps and not to wear latex or spandex or gang signs or shirts depicting illegal activity. Though beer and cigarettes are not illegal for adults, I would still not recommend an adult wearing shirts depicting these products to work, and particularly not to a job where they are in contact with children. My union rep wears t-shirts and holey jeans to work. And dammit no one misbehaves in his class! Nor do they misbehave in Tyrone’s class, and Tyrone wears shirts and ties nearly every day.
Me, I’ve started dressing quasi-goth lately. Why? Because I’m thirty-fucking-one and it’s about time I had some fun with my clothes. I spent too much of my life being called “conservative” and considering that an insult. However, if I end up in a new school I will tone it down for a while until I get a sense of how people will react. I like to stir things up a little at a time, and they’ll probably have enough problems with my inability to follow scripted curricula. Pgh_ex_bf1 said something once about how if he dyed his hair blue he’d have to dress even more formally for work, and I agree…you have to temper one off-the-wall habit with over-adherence on another front. I can get away with red and black striped stockings or blueish hair because I’m a good teacher.
I could make the same argument about your feelings on dress code being unoriginal. That said, i really do very much believe everything I’ve said here.
In the case of uniforms vs. following a fashion trend, there is a very real difference. The kids who go out and buy GQ or Cosmo and try to wear the latest trends may not be blazing new ground, but they are CHOOSING how they want to look. Even if their personality is totally derivative and they are complete followers, they are still doing that on their own, and that promotes growth of identity (even if that identity is that of a fashion lemming). By providing uniforms the choice is being removed from them, and the individuality subjugated. The identity is being forced on them, and I consider that wrong. For instance, I’m pretty clearly pushing for people to take pride in being as pretty as they can, but I totally support an individuals right to choose to not be pretty. That’s different than me requiring people to be pretty.
The purpose of uniforms is specifically to supplant individuality in favor of the group dynamic. That’s why the military wears them. Look it up. 🙂 The purpose of fashion is to create a template by which one can express themselves in an attractive manner, the individuality comes in the specific ways in which that template is implemented. I made that one up, but I believe it.
If I had said I was totally against the dress code, you could say that was unoriginal too. After all, you said it “first,” [1] so agreeing with you would be just as unoriginal as agreeing with the dress code. So it’s good you didn’t make that argument.
As for uniforms…I don’t think how a person dresses is the ultimate or only possible expression of their individuality. I think a person’s ability to be an individual can not be squashed by putting that person in a uniform. One could argue that taking away the easiest expression of individuality – clothing choice – requires a person to find more creative ways to express who they are – poetry, dance, music, sports, class clowning, blowing up stuff behind the Quickie-Mart, sexual promiscuity, whatever you like.
But let’s get to the real issue. (Why) Do you value individuality over fitting into a group?
[1] Where “first” equals first in this post, not first ever.
I thought I answered this already, but I don’t see it.
One may look at the stereotypical promiscuity of catholic school girls, one might assume you’re right, but i tend to attribute it much more to kids in general just wanting to rebel against authority of any type. I think a far better way of promoting individuality than forcing visual conformity is to simply promote those individual pursuits.
I wouldn’t say I devalue group dynamics. Quite the contrary. I value individuality because diversity improves the group dynamic by bringing alternate ideas and concepts into it.
I’m not disagreeing at all, but I just want to add that it also totally depends on where you work…right now I am freelancing for a company that manufactures t-shirts. Many of their designs incorporate beer bottles and assorted other drinks. No one at this place would even think twice if I showed up to work in one of them. I don’t, but if I did no one would care.
The garment industry on one hand allows for a little more flexibility in dress, but on the other hand you can count on all of your co-workers being very clothes-conscious.
yeah, that’s different. I think my point is not so much about the specifics about what you wear but that people should understand that the outfits they pick do make different statements. Everyone you work with understands what it means to wear a T-shirt vs. a business suit vs. an evening gown vs. ripped jeans and flannel vs. the classic Revenge of the Nerds look. How you lookd DOES matter on a day to day basis. That’s why you choose to not wear the t-shirts you manufacture to work. Some people seem to deny that though.
yeah, that’s different. I think my point is not so much about the specifics about what you wear but that people should understand that the outfits they pick do make different statements. Everyone you work with understands what it means to wear a T-shirt vs. a business suit vs. an evening gown vs. ripped jeans and flannel vs. the classic Revenge of the Nerds look. How you lookd DOES matter on a day to day basis. That’s why you choose to not wear the t-shirts you manufacture to work. Some people seem to deny that though.
I’m not disagreeing at all, but I just want to add that it also totally depends on where you work…right now I am freelancing for a company that manufactures t-shirts. Many of their designs incorporate beer bottles and assorted other drinks. No one at this place would even think twice if I showed up to work in one of them. I don’t, but if I did no one would care.
The garment industry on one hand allows for a little more flexibility in dress, but on the other hand you can count on all of your co-workers being very clothes-conscious.
I am a nudist. However, I’m also a realist, and the reality is that society pretty much as a whole requires clothing. I don’t put half the thought into my attire that some people do, but I do try to look decent.
Funny that you should bring up the practice of piercing the ears of babies. I think that it’s a cruel practice. Obviously, I’m not against body modifications, but I am against cosmetic surgery done without consent unless it’s required to save the patient’s life, and babies can’t consent.
I’m torn on the piercing infants thing. While in general, I agree with you on the consent issue, I also have to acknowledge the rights of parents to consent on the behalf of the infants. I think ear piercing for instance is relatively unobtrusive and non-invasive. How do you feel about circumcision on male babies, for instance? What about cosmetic surgery that isn’t necessary to save a baby’s life but might be a good idea for providing the baby with a relatively normal life. Like repairing a cleft pallate. Or fixing a burn or scar, for instance.
Ear piercing is causing unnecessary pain to an being incapable of consent, and I just can’t get behind that, any more than I can get behind tattooing infants or binding their feet.
I am squarely in the anti-circumcision camp as far as infants go. It’s the removal of a perfectly healthy and functional piece of an infant’s body in the name of social inertia and so-called health benefits. I’m not going to call CYS or anything when someone does have their child circumcised, but I do think that it’s wrong. One should minimize the pain to benefit ratio for one’s children.
Your other examples are fixing things that are broken, and I can get behind that. Pretend that I included “fixing things that are broken” in my previous post.
so when is old enough to consent to an ear piercing? I can see a three year old seeing someone with earrings and then asking. Is that ok? I mean, I can also see a three year old asking for a tattoo, and I’m thinking I’d be against that. But where is the line?
I can’t see a three year old asking for a circumcision, but I also think that if you’re going to get it done, you’re better off getting it done at a few days old where you don’t remember the pain as opposed to consenting to it at 18 when…. ow!
As with most things, there is no line where anyone younger is too young. Does that three-year-old understand when you describe things to him? If so, he’s probably old enough to make the decision to get his ears pierced. Chances are slim that he understands the concept of “forever”, so that’s a likely “no” on the tattoos and circumcision. As a matter of fact, I’d likely make a child of mine wait until they’re adolescent before getting circumcised, and he’d have to have a reason better than “all the other kids are cut!” or “this girl wants me to get snipped.”
Piercings can be removed. Reversing tattoos is expensive and painful. Reversing a circumcision is… extremely uncomfortable.
Understood…
Pain is momentary. Personally I don’t relish trying to keep a surgical wound clean when it happens to be in the diaper region (that is, poop central). It’s enough work keeping that area clean without having to be careful of the wound.
Eh, its a big enough job cleaning a baby anyway. At the point where you’re changing a diaper, I don’t think it’s notably any harder.
It’d require a more gentle touch though. I just don’t see the sense in having a big boo-boo so close to the poop. It seems an unnecessary risk of infection, especially when circumcision is totally unnecessary as a health issue.
Surgical repairs to defects that can and will cause problems are more on the dis of life saving.
Circumcision, on the other hand, falls well past ear-piercing as unecessary and cruel to inflict on someone without consent.
The question becoms more tricky when you come to trying to correct irregular sex organs- the convential wisdom says to pick one and correct, but there seems to be more and more indication that, unless there’s a real functional problem, it’s better to wait till the child is old enough to choose the identity that they want.
clearly a fringe case… but yes, those are interesting thoughts…
I dunno, I think a huge part of identity is chained up in gender, and I wouldn’t feel right about leaving that part of a child’s life open until such time as they were able to make their own choice. If I ever had to make that choice, I’d think I’d have to choose one and hope for the best. Hopefully I’ll never have to decide such a thing.
You wouldn’t feel right leaving gender choice up to the child, but you would be OK picking and risking them going through a serious gender identity crisis later in life? To me, that feels too much like forcing all children to be right handed, instead of waiting for them to decide.
I don’t know that I’m OK with it. It’s more trying to decide between the lesser of two evils. I don’t know that I really like either choice. And I don’t know for sure which way I would go. I was just thinking about it in the moment. As I said, HOVA willing, it’s a choice I’d never have to worry about.
I don’t really care what people look like, period, and yes, that includes what they are wearing. It’s superficial and something that irritates me to no end about our society.
I think sexy is an attitude and has very little to do with what outfit one is wearing. People who say that it shows that you “respect” yourself by being “presentable” can kiss my ass because they are the same people who say things like “fat people are sloppy”. It’s rude, inconsiderate, and mean.
Regardless, I can’t take women seriously in the workplace when I am so distracted by their cleavage or ass-hugging pants that I can’t focus on their WORDS. If I’m a (mostly) straight woman saying that, how do (mostly) straight men concentrate at work when women look like that? Ditto for at school, where, frankly, I think it’s worse because immaturity gets in the way (well, more immaturity than at work, hopefully) and raging hormones.
DO NOT mistake this as me advocating uniforms for the masses. That’s not what I’m saying.
well, I wouldn’t want to mistake rudeness for practicality. And, yes, it may be superficial, but at the end of the day, it is a superficial society. And while you may find it distasteful, you have to admit that there is some usefulness to it, right? I mean, its quite superficial of society to demand that we practice good grammar. Yes, there is a bare minimum of grammar that is needed for proper comprehension, but if a kid says “Me want a cookie” you know what he means, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t correct him to “I want a cookie.” At least that’s how I feel.
On the other hand, I will acknowledge that there are some things that are inappropriate for work or school. I hope that was clear, but it may not be. Take for instance the picture of Viki that I have on this post. I think that’d be inappropriate to wear to most office jobs. But that doesn’t mean that she should go to work in poorly fitted dockers and a flannel shirt any more than it means that she should wear a burlap sack.
You have a (nearly) teenaged daughter, so I’m actually curious as to where you stand on the other issues. I’ll grant that you might not allow her to dress like a tramp, but do you allow her more leeway with how she dresses than you might take yourself. Meaning, is she allowed to wear make-up? Pierce her ears? Wear a miniskirt to school? Whatever? And if not, at what age will she be allowed to make such decisions for herself?
I’m actually quite against school uniforms. I think development of individuality is a very important thing for kids to learn while they’re in school. <OBPIGGISHNESS>That said, I encourage the catholic schoolgirl look for all women… because… well… yum… </OBPIGGISHNESS>
I am not saying that women need to wear baggy clothes. I’m just saying that cleavage and tight pants are distracting at work. They are distracting all the time, actually, but I don’t welcome the distraction at work.
Funny story: I’ve gained about 15 lbs this year since I quit smoking in January, and part of that is in my, uh, breasteses. So, most of the blouses I have no longer fit, but I’m on a pretty tight budget so I can only replace things a little at a time, right? Anyway, I wore this tight blouse to work but recognized that it wasn’t appropriate all buttoned up (too tight plus you could see my entire chest through the gaps… and I couldn’t even button it all the way up anyway, gained that much weight), so I layered a lacy tank under it. I was entering a meeting that morning when a male coworker stopped me and said, “Sonbanon, I think your blouse has come undone and your bra is showing.” Right, so we all know what men are looking at, but I had to explain to him that it was SUPPOSED to look that way. Anyway, my point is: breasts are distracting all the time, but showing them off makes them even more distracting!
Listen, I’m not a prude and I probably sound like one. I’ll prove it by saying that I spent more than most of my teenage years clad in barely anything. Some of my clothes were so provocative that my mom would regularly raid my room and throw them away.
As for what I allow my daughter now: she’s 11 and doesn’t yet realize the power of the female body. Because of that, she has no idea that OLDER MALES are actually checking her out. (It’s gross, but I’ve seen it happen.) I coach her quite a bit on what I think is appropriate, but I also allow her to make her own choices with her wardrobe within reason. I actually really don’t like the majority of what she likes, so most of what she owns is not stuff I’d choose for her.
She wears make-up in public and she has her ears pierced. If she asked for her nipples or belly button to be pierced, I’d probably want her to wait til she was at least 15. She’d be sent home from school in anything shorter than her finger tips, so no miniskirts there, but she does wear them. Unfortunately, she’s gifted with an ass like mine, so I try to steer her away from short skirts.
At what age can she make all the decisions for herself? I dunno–at what age did you? I’m still not sure that I do and I’m in my (very early) 30s.
On your blouse story: Why didn’t you just wear the shirt unbutton entirely and wear the tank under it? Or was the tank too lacy for that? As a guy, I think seeing a girls bra is a lot “distracting” as you say then seeing the same girl in a bikini because we’re guys and there’s something about that aspect that we’re not supposed to be seeing it. Its a naughty kinda thing. We’re boys. We’re stupid.
On your daughter: Are you sure she doesn’t notice? Obviously, I’ve only met her the twice, but she seems rather bright. If she wears makeup she obviously wants to be “pretty.” Maybe she just doesn’t care to make a big deal of inappropriate attention or maybe she is just mature enough to ignore it? *shrug* Anyway, it’s rather cool that you let her make her own decisions.
On making all decisions: I dunno. I think would agree that she gave me a fair bit of leway with stuff while I was growing up. I’ve always been pretty independent. That said, I sometimes ask her for guidance on stuff even now. I was more getting at when would she be allowed to say “Mom, I want to get my nipple pierced” without you freaking out. And you kinda of answered that. On the flip side, I knew some parents that wouldn’t even allow their daughters to get their ears pierced at 15.
Aw, my “start” and “end” idealism tags didn’t show up for my first paragraph above. Dang.
She’s bright but I don’t think yet has the social maturity to quite understand what I’m referring to as the power of the female body.
As for my blouse/ tank story: It’s way too complicated to explain in detail on LJ but I had to wear something professional and I literally had nothing else available, again, due to weight gain + negative finances. Leaving the blouse unbuttoned was too casual. In hindsight, a less lacy tank would have been smarter and would have looked like a tank under the blouse, not a bra/negligee thingy.
P.S. I was thinking about you at lunch today. My waitress had the biggest chest, like big long saggy chest, and this like foot long twisted up cleavage. It wasn’t distracting: it was disgusting. I don’t know that my male companion felt the same way 🙂
Contrary to what one might assume by the way I write here, I’m actually not overly fond of very large cleavage. Nice cleavage, sure. But bigger doesn’t necessarilly mean better.
Re the pics of Vicki Gambino: YOIKS!
Thanx. I thought her shoot turned out really well, and I’m quite offended at the Fed for not picking her for the Diva Search based on them… Assholes! 🙂
She is much to classy to be one of Bang’s DX sluts…
I dunno. $250,000 goes a long way towards what one is willing to subject oneself to.
Yeah but with the expenses of a job like that, that $250G would not last you all that long…
Here’s an interesting side question–if you had a young daughter, would you allow her to watch the WWE?
I think it would last long enough.
That’s an interesting question, and one that Steph and I have discussed a bunch. Obviously, I’m inclined to be much more forgiving of wrestling than she is for pretty obvious reasons. That said, even if I wasn’t, I tend to feel that it depends on the kid. When you say “young daughter” how young? Well really, how mature. I am very much of the opinion that wrestling is no more damaging than any other violent TV show on the air. So long as the kid understood basic principals of what is and isn’t appropriate for one to do in common society, I think the kid can watch TV according to tastes. If you can grasp the concept of it isn’t appropriate to go around raping and shooting people (Law & Order) nor is appropriate to go around blowing up animals and running off of cliffs (Roadrunner & Coyote) then I think you can handle “don’t bodyslam people.”
Steph tends to be a little more conservative on her view than me. When the time comes, maybe I’ll challenge her to a cage match, and the winner will get their way.
I agree it depends on the kids and the content. When I went to ECW last Saturday, there were some really little kids sitting near me. They seemed to love the show [Hell they went Big Time Bug Fuck Crazy when Sabu came out–which was great] but when Kelly came out to do her strip routine, their dad grabbed all 4 kids and hauled them out of there [probably to the bathroom or concession stand].
Im never going to be a parent, but if I was taking my neices and nephews, I wouldnt want them to see any of the sex stuff, and maybe not the extreme weapons spots, but other stuff would be ok. Id try and steer them more towards TNA or lucha instead of the WWE product…
Would you let the kid read comic books??
I’m all for parents making individual choices on a case by case basis in regards to wrestling. Based both on the product and their own ideals and values for the children.
As for comics, yes. In fact, I intend to encourage it.
I don’t put much thought into what I wear – in comparison to a lot of women. I do like shopping, when I have the money for it, which is rare. But I don’t try super hard to match, or be up to date. I actually prefer goodwill shopping.
The only time I really ever tried to look good at work is when I was a bartender, and only because my boss told me I dressed too “frumpy” needed to be more sexy for bartending. So, I tried. So, I guess it all depends on the job you have – for an office job I think just looking neat and clean is appropriate, if a bit of sexiness is thrown in that’s ok, just not to the hooker/pimp extreme. And as far as kids in school go, I will never let my little girl dress like a hooch, ever. I’m just not into being sexy – I may be sexy when doing the belly dance thing, but that’s all for me, and feeling good about myself, never for other people. And I fear that a 14 year old girl wouldn’t be dressing sexy for herself, it would be for the boys, and boys just want the poontang.
I would let them get their ears pieced, at the appropriate age, say 11 or 12. But I couldn’t pierce an infant, to me, that’s just wrong. But, then again I never wear earrings, my ears and pieced and on the yearly occasion that I might wear earrings for fun, I always have to repeirce the holes in my ears a bit. Heck as a belly dancer, I’m actually unique for NOT having a belly button piercing.
How old is your daughter, anyway? I know you’ve had a little girl as long as I’ve known you, so at bare minimum she’s like 5. But I never knew how old she was then.
If you could, I kinda wonder about your answers to the same questions I asked above. There’s a difference between dressing like a hooch and being sexy. At what point will you let your daugther explore that for herself? You said you’d let her get her ears done at the appropriate age. How did you arrive at the age of 11 or 12? Is she allowed to pick out her own clothes (with supervision)? What about make-up? When is that allowed?
As for the “dressing sexy for the boys comment.” While I understand your point, I don’t totally agree with it (or totally disagree with it). I think that a 14 year old girl definitely wants to feel attractive for herself, and I don’t know that I have a problem with her wanting attention from others (within reason of course — there is a point where that attention could be dangerous, and that attention shouldn’t come exclusively from appearance, but I think its ok to want to be the prettiest, just like I think its ok to want to be the smartest, funniest, nicest and most athletic. I would hope that when I have kids, they’d strive for it all.)
Yes, but sometimes the fine line between hooch and sexy. I think I would supervise the outfits till about the age of 12 – then it’s all their own – of course I will give it the go ahead – or get back in that room and change..11 or 12 seems like the right time for a child to begin making their own decisions. Thats when they start to begin to “find themselves”, so i think it’s a good time. Make-up is a different thing, I think I’d start with just eye liner, then add on from that starting at about 13, slowly let her do different things. I don’t wanna say – here’s a makeup case go at it. I want to show her HOW it should be applied, and let her start with just one thing, and building on that. I myself don’t wear any makeup and it’s my hope that she would be the same way about it, but you never know.
And I know she would want to be pretty for herself in a way – but there’s a line there. Like – nice panty hose, sure – fishnet stalkings….no. Skirt a few inches above the knees – with some sort of short shorts underneath, sure….mini-shirt, with just panties underneath….hell no.
There will be no dress code or anything, but I will have to OK things she walks out in.
All very interesting. How old is she now? When do you have to start worrying about these things?
Also, you mentioned you’d let her pierce her ears at 11. What about the belly button? Would that have to wait til later?
Gambino?
With Mickey and Marshall being shoe leather ugly, any possibility she’s adopted?
Re: Gambino?
I wouldn’t say such things… the gambinos have a way of making people disappear.
It’s not that “no one will take them seriously if they look hot or express any sexuality or femininity”. It’s–well, the thing is, that’s partially true. In a lot of areas, it’s harder to be taken seriously if you’re female and wear very feminine attire. But “any” is too strong, in my experience. I wear clothing that tends to show off the fact that I have a small waist; I also wear tops that are a little lower-cut than many people wear. Not *too* low-cut, though – I’m doing this balancing act, this thing where I have to wear clothes that make me look competent and professional by minimizing my weight, making my boobs look smaller, always looking neat and tidy, not showing bra straps, and so on.
Because I’m heavyset and have big boobs, the “minimizing my weight” and “making my boobs look smaller” are really, actually important. People react to me differently if I don’t do those things. They *do* take me less seriously. And I actually *have* to express some femininity in dress in order to make those aspects work; I *have* to use accessories and my small waist size and girly-style layers (like a camisole under a suit jacket) to give the impression I need to give to do my damn job.
When my job didn’t involve any interacting with the public, I had blue hair and wore slogan t-shirts and ratty jeans. But now it does, and I can’t do that and expect to be worth my salary.
I think you agree with me… (or I agree with you)
its so hard to tell.
The blue hair vs. feminine suit based on job requirements thing is a good example. I kinda touched on that way back here in 2003. It was never that you didn’t care what you looked like. If you did, you wouldn’t have bothered to invest in the dye. It was that you were attempting to promote a certain look. You wanted that look to evoke a certain reaction in others. As opposed to what I perceive as people thinking they can somehow get NO REACTION based on their appearance, and I just don’t think that’s feasible. You haven’t changed. Its just that now the reaction you need to evoke is different so you present a different appearance in order to achieve that.
Yes, I think we basically do agree — I get really flabbergasted when people say things like “my appearance shouldn’t matter” — because, hello, are you human? Humans are social animals, and what I wear has an effect on others, and it’s plain stupidity not to acknowledge that.
Do I think it’s *right* that people think I’m dumb because I’m chubby and have enormous tits? Well, no, I don’t. I think it’s stupid and sexist and sizeist. But I’d be a complete idiot if I didn’t acknowledge that it existed.
I – well, I don’t get people who don’t care much about clothes, but I know plenty of them who don’t care, but still manage to dress appropriately. Most of them don’t have much of a personal style, but that’s not wrong; it’s just a personality thing, and me not getting that isn’t some kind of moral issue.
But then there are the people who say or act like they don’t care about clothes, and cannot manage not to wear ratty shorts to a business casual workplace, and cannot manage to not have gross hair and BO and then are all het up about people judging them on their appearance, and well, look, fucking shower and wear some pants without holes — people are judging you on the fact that you look like someone with MENTAL PROBLEMS, do you not get that? And they don’t, but really, the difference between some people I’ve seen showing up to work and that crazy homeless dude in Oakland with only one shoe is pretty much…that one shoe. And the muttering.
I think judging someone just on their weight, or their facial features, or the stylishness of their clothing, or the color of their skin or what set of genitals they have or what imaginary being they pray to or what gender(s) they like to sleep with is stupid, but judging someone on their personal hygeine and tidiness is NOT.
that’s one of things I’m getting at. In essence it does matter. I don’t think its a mark of what’s wrong or right. I think its a matter of what is. Depsite my claims of chinese heritage, I’m black. At the end of the day. I know I’m black. To pretend that being black didn’t matter would be an incredible diservice to me and would basically make me stupid. Is it “Right” well no, but its something I can’t do anything about and don’t really want to. Its ok to not want to do anything about having blue hair, or not having appropriate business clothes, but it is SO not the same thing.
In any case, I agree that it is human nature for it to matter, and while I attribute a lot of value to freedom of personal choice (I think it is quite fine to not want to look as attractive as you can), I think its pretty silly to expect people to not react to it.
I work in IT, and have often worked in offices where I was the only female in the department. The more I act like “one of the guys”, including how I dress, act, or otherwise indicate, I am far more accepted as “one of the guys”, and thus as a member of the team. It does change from office to office, depending on how many women are around (the more women around, the more acceptable it is to be “girly”), but by and large I’ve been in those situations.
Currently, though, my department has a lot of women in it, so all my lack of fashion is just habitual. This has made a few people in my life sad, so I’ve been trying to fix that. 🙂
I dunno, I think there is a bit of a difference between being “one of the guys” and being “that chick who dress well.”
Understand, I’m not saying be all pink lace and flowers. I’m not even specifically trying to single out women (although that’s kind of how the discussion went). Even in your case, you’re talking about specifically dressing to downplay a certain aspect and evoke a certain reaction. That’s different than being unaware of the reaction that certain outfits evoke or wanting that to not be true. That’s what I was getting at. Both with men and women.
Well, given that “one of the guys” in most IT departments means… dressing in T-shirts with various geek stuff on them, and jeans. Take that as you will.
well, the pretentious bastard part of me says “yes, they’re wrong too”
but yeah, I get your meaning.
well, the pretentious bastard part of me says “yes, they’re wrong too”
but yeah, I get your meaning.
Well, given that “one of the guys” in most IT departments means… dressing in T-shirts with various geek stuff on them, and jeans. Take that as you will.
I dunno, I think there is a bit of a difference between being “one of the guys” and being “that chick who dress well.”
Understand, I’m not saying be all pink lace and flowers. I’m not even specifically trying to single out women (although that’s kind of how the discussion went). Even in your case, you’re talking about specifically dressing to downplay a certain aspect and evoke a certain reaction. That’s different than being unaware of the reaction that certain outfits evoke or wanting that to not be true. That’s what I was getting at. Both with men and women.
I work in IT, and have often worked in offices where I was the only female in the department. The more I act like “one of the guys”, including how I dress, act, or otherwise indicate, I am far more accepted as “one of the guys”, and thus as a member of the team. It does change from office to office, depending on how many women are around (the more women around, the more acceptable it is to be “girly”), but by and large I’ve been in those situations.
Currently, though, my department has a lot of women in it, so all my lack of fashion is just habitual. This has made a few people in my life sad, so I’ve been trying to fix that. 🙂
Isn’t it strange that catholic schools make catholic school girls wear catholic school girl outfits?
I don’t think its strange at all… For God So loved the world…
I wonder if Catholic School Girl outfits would stop being sexy if Catholic School Girls stopped being uniformed in them. My hunch is no; nurses are wearing scrubs these days and the short nurse outfit is still sexy.
There is a Catholic school near me and the little plaid skirts are still in effect. There is a school with uniforms near my (ex-)school and the skirts are a couple inches longer, with wider pleats and a solid grey. Much less sexy.
I’ve often wondered that myself. And while I will acknowledge that there is certainly some level of added attraction due to the taboo nature of the outfit, I also think that there is an innate sexiness to the look that would definitely make it still attractive even if Catholic schools switched to mandatory pants suits for the girls enrolled.
I mean, let’s face it. It’s a short skirt that kinda sticks out, so if you position yourself the right way, or a strong breeze blows, you can see undies. What’s unsexy about that? The taboo factor only adds to the innate sexiness of the original design. What were those nuns thinking????
What were they thinking? For God so loved the world…
Monica and I have decided that we’re not going to pierce Ariana’s ears now, but as soon as she asks to have them pierced (kindergarden, 5th grade, whenever), we’ll take her.
sounds plenty reasonable to me. When she’s 4 and asks for facial tattoos are you gonna let her do that too? 🙂
Give her a temp tattoo or some watercolor paint and she’ll be just as happy.
bah! you and your practicality!
oh my. so many ideas/comments floating around my head. first of all: makeover??? if i had the cash for one…. second of all: jammy jam = w00t! ok, on to serious matters.
i am one of those people who ‘doesn’t care.’ i wear clothes that are supposedly appropriate for work, i.e. closed toe shoes, covering shoulders, no leg exposed. (i work in a pretty conservative office right now). i do that so that they’ll pay me. other than that, it’s whatever is clean on my floor when i wake up in the morning. i want people to pay attention to me for me not for how sexy i can dress. sometimes, yes, i do ‘dress up’ as it were, all sexy-like. when i’m going out with people i like or going clubbing/dancing/partying/whathaveyou. but it’s for me. I want to feel sexier so i wear something sexier. it really is all about attitude. i could be sexy is greasy mechanics over-alls or a granny nightgown IF i felt sexy. plus, i do enjoy the occasional power suit when it’s called for.
what is appropriate to wear to work/school? this one’s tougher. school: i think that everyone should be allowed to wear whatever they are comfortable learning in. in HS (and some of college) i showed up to class in PJs. of course, some girls showed up in underwear. but when in history did we decide that female sexuality is bad that we have to hide it? (sometime last century, i know…) do i think it’s appropriate for 15 year old girls to dress like whores? no. but what’s your definition of ‘whore’? same goes in the office. wear what YOU are comfortable wearing – but what your colleagues are comfortable seeing you in. but then that brings in the question of teamwork and community responsibility. if i am offending my neighbor do i continue because it’s my life and i’ll do what i want or do i stop out of love and courtesy to my neighbor? it’s a choice.
alright, enough rambling. i am done posing MORE questions.
Hey! Jammy Jam is totally a very important serious matter!
Actually, on the other stuff, you’re a pretty similar wavelength to me. One of the problems I have with my current (soon to be ending) job is that even though it is extremely rare that I have to talk to anyone in person, I don’t have the option of even wearing jeans when I want to. Sometimes I like to dress up, sometimes I like to dress for comfort. On a day when I have to sit in my cube and work for 10 hours, I should definitely be able to do the latter, and I can’t.
I don’t see how you are saying you “don’t care” though. It sounds like you do, but you want the decision to be left up to your mood (which I support) as opposed to dictated to you by others.
The denegrating of female sexuality is another thing I have a serious problem with. And while its related, that’s a whole other can of worms to be opening up. I kinda touched on it a bit. I think being able to be attractive/sexy/cute/whatever is pretty important in life. I’m not saying it should be required, but I don’t think genius intelligence should be required either. But I definitely don’t approve of people looking at either one as though it was superfluous.
Speaking of wearing underwear in public…
Can we expect to see you at Jammy Jam?
Re: Speaking of wearing underwear in public…
i guess so – as long as i have (or someone can provide) transportation.
Re: Speaking of wearing underwear in public…
that’s easy enough to provide…
Given recent events, this is an amusing thing for me to think about.
I spent a long time in the camp of clothes simply being functional. Protection from the elements and such (I mean, would you want to sit on a public bus without at least one layer of clothing protecting you?) and to maintain social acceptability.
I got over overall disregard pretty easily, understanding that the more presentable you are, the more comfortable other people are with you. That, really is, I think, the problem with people who dress down completely. It’s not that they don’t care about how they look, but that they’re sending a strong message of “My comfort matters more to me than yours.” That’s, obviously, a very damaging message to send in any professional context.
Understanding isn’t really the same as appreciating, though. It’s only very recently that I’ve gotten a feel for the later- the sheer enjoyment that can come from actually trying to look good and having the work put into it affirmed.
My instinct, based on where I can see my previous attitudes are coming from, is that a lot of people have, at best, no appreciation of their appearance, if not an outright negative one. It beomces easier, then, to declare themselvs “beyond” such common vanity and boost themselves up by lumping together anyone who puts effort into looking good as shallow and superficial.
Not that there aren’t those who are so obsessed by their looks that they do fit that description, but the truth is, as long as you don’t get too worked up about it, it’s just another way to have fun. Some people will enjoy it more than others, certainly. But, keeping a sense of what’s most effective and appropriate in what situation is just part of the game.
That’s actually a good way of summing up my feelings, more or less. I’m not absolutely in a greement, but I’m maybe 90% there. I think people who feel they aren’t “one of the beautiful” reject it as an ideal because its easier than believing something is wrong with them. To me, that is just as wrong as the jocks and cheerleaders rejecting the nerds for their geekiness and intelligence. I’m not saying that beauty is more important than intelligence. I’m saying both are valuable and I’m saying that there is nothing wrong with aspiring to both (nor is there anything wrong with achieving neither).
Absolutely. That’s what I’m learning in my own way as well. I mean there are definitely people out there who simply don’t care, but they also generally don’t turn that into active disregard.
I can also imagine, in our society at least, that you’ll find the attitude in guys more often that girls. We often go beyond simply not teaching guys to reconize what makes them attractive into, really, discouraging it in many ways.
probably. Of course, the PC feminist thing is to teach girls that it shouldn’t matter either. I, on the other hand, am anything but PC.
Yeah, that’s really a shame, because it just spreads the problem instead of encouraging people to figure out what they enjoy for themselves.
yeah… I have a lot of problems with organized feminism for that reason. I sort of agree with a lot of the ideals but disagree with a lot of the conclusions reached from them. I feel the same way about a lot of political groups actually. From megaparties like the Democrats, Republicans and Libertarians down to special interest groups like GLAAD, the NRA or the NAACP. That’s probably part of the reason that I hate organized politics so much.
As far as why should we value looks any less than intelligence: for me, the answer is that it’s easy to put on a sexy outfit and some makeup and have men gawk. But it’s harder to, say, get published. And there’s something in me that values effort-based achievment.
I don’t disagree with what you said, but I have two problems with it.
1) The two things are mutually exclusive. Putting on a sexy outfit and making men gawk doesn’t stop you from getting published. Nor does getting published make you any less sexy. Therefore, why relate them at all. Is being published more important than learning to drive? Or enjoying jazz? Or liking sushi? There’s no good way to even make those relations.
2) I think your scale is off. By publishing, I assume you meant, like in a psychology journal. Yes, that’s harder for you to do than wearing a short skirt and getting some guy walking down the street to look at you. But I publish myself on the internet all the time. That’s trivial. To look at it another way. Its hard for you to get published, sure. But as I am discussing with above, Viki’s goal wasn’t “get men to state” it was “be a WWE Diva Search finalist.” I’d argue that its far easier to get your thesis published than it is to win that, or even make it into the semi-finals.
I’m not saying that a person has to be the most beautiful or the most intelligent. I’m saying why not aspire to both? Venus Williams for instance, has done both modeling and has studied interior design (and owns a company that does that). And yet, I expect she’d say that winning 5 Grand Slam tennis championships was harder than either of those things.
While it is pretty easy to wear a short skirt, for people with weight issues it is extremely difficult to look good in that short skirt. I have a colleague who recently has lost a lot of weight (at least 50 lbs). We compliment her all the time. Constantly. She loves it. Not in a hooting sort of way, in a genuine way. For many people looking good is an accomplishment.
No, I wasn’t saying you can’t be proud of your looks! I was saying that I value looking good less than other things because it’s less effort for me. If I had put a lot of effort into losing weight, I would be proud of myself too!
I didn’t say you said…! I agree with Mav that the two are not mutually exclusive. I do think a lot of our valuing looks is not on the conscious level. I know I try to not care about looks, but I do react differently to…less model-like…people.
Oops. sorry. Very confusing. So now you’re saying they are mutually exclusive values, since they’re at different levels of consciousness..? I guess I could see that, as applying to others (not oneself).
I don’t think being at different levels of consciousness makes them mutually exclusive. I don’t think they have anything to do with one another. Whether I value intelligence really has nothing to do with whether I value looks. Whether I value one more than the other…I don’t like to make top ten lists and rank things. I don’t see the utility in it.
but, if its not much effort, why not do it? (i’m not talking about you specifically, but feel free to answer for yourself)
The comfort argument you make elsewhere is certainly an important one, but I mean beyond that. There is a very real feeling that “I don’t want people to pay attention to my looks” but that doesn’t address the point that I and are making above. People are going to pay attention. And if that’s the case, then shouldn’t you use that to your advantage instead of having it work to your disadvantage?
I don’t think that for my job, looks matter as much as for probably most other jobs, where you meet more people. So I would rather spend the extra time sleeping or getting into work earlier than doing the extra grooming. I might put more effort into grooming if I thought it would boost me in my career. In fact, I probably would, given that I do tend to dress better and wear makeup when I go to conferences.
see, that’s a different point of view. And that rationale makes perfect sense to me. This is quite different than what I was getting at about “should it matter” and “should I dress down to make people pay more attention to me.”
Lately you’ve been paying a lot more attention to fashion and that has been making you both, look much sexier and not stick out as much as you did when you were always trying to defeminize yourself at work. And be honest, aren’t you at least a little happier because of it? Don’t you feel better about yourself? There was nothing wrong with you before, but doesn’t “feeling” actively pretty, make you feel a little more right?
Just the other day I was thinking I need to make a t-shirt that says “Stop looking at me.” Because I’m tired of people looking at me. Not people that are going to be an advantage or disadvantage. Just people on the street.
and you acknowledge of course that that’s going to make people look at you more, right? And not take you as seriously as they otherwise might.
See, that’s kinda my point (to a less silly degree) with the idea of deminizing your appearance.
Of course it will.
I don’t really care how seriously random people I pass on the street take me. It’s not an issue.
I don’t think it’s silly that I want people to stop looking at me. It’s very serious. Everyone needs to get the hell away from me. I hate you all. Die die die!
you’re going to feel really really bad if I die in the middle of the night.
Maybe I would if I had an exaggerated sense of my own importance, but I don’t. I’d ask if you’re dead, but that’s just setting myself up.
luckily, I managed to pull through… no thanx to you…
) The two things are mutually exclusive. Putting on a sexy outfit and making men gawk doesn’t stop you from getting published. Nor does getting published make you any less sexy. Therefore, why relate them at all. Is being published more important than learning to drive? Or enjoying jazz? Or liking sushi? There’s no good way to even make those relations.
I guess by “value”, I meant “makes me feel good about myself”, which is different from being (practically) “important”, or “enjoying” something. I definitely enjoy eating sushi more than I enjoy writing.
And the two are not mutually exclusive. I purposely dress for work to be comfortable (and sexy outfits tend not to be very comfortable), because when I’m comfortable, I’m more focused and more productive.
2) I think your scale is off. By publishing, I assume you meant, like in a psychology journal. Yes, that’s harder for you to do than wearing a short skirt and getting some guy walking down the street to look at you. But I publish myself on the internet all the time. That’s trivial. To look at it another way. Its hard for you to get published, sure. But as I am discussing with akiramich above, Viki’s goal wasn’t “get men to state” it was “be a WWE Diva Search finalist.” I’d argue that its far easier to get your thesis published than it is to win that, or even make it into the semi-finals.
OK, fine. That was the first example that popped into my head. But it’s still true at a lower level.
You changed the definition of “easy” into “likely to happen”. Sure, that’s true that the probability is lower for the diva search. But I think it’s more psychologically healthy basing your values on things you can control through effort rather than on some random person’s opinion. Those things tend to be more stable.
I’m not saying that a person has to be the most beautiful or the most intelligent. I’m saying why not aspire to both? Venus Williams for instance, has done both modeling and has studied interior design (and owns a company that does that). And yet, I expect she’d say that winning 5 Grand Slam tennis championships was harder than either of those things.
I think you mean Serena. I wonder what she’d say she’s most proud of and why.
1) That’s not a real correlation. I mean, yes, on some nebulous level, eating sushi may effect your work habits, but that doesn’t mean that it really has anything to do with you getting published in any real manner. Also, for instance you used to think it was inappropriate for you to wear jeans to work (I know you’ve since changed your mind). That wasn’t a comfort decision.
The other issue is that sexy doesn’t necessarilly imply uncomfortable. And also, in this respect I’m not even specifically talking about being sexy. I’m not talking about whether or lot you should wear leather miniskirts and lacey corsets to work. I’m more talking about whether or not you should wear feminine, nicely tailored clothes, or ripped jeans, ratty t-shirts or dumpy poorly fitted “I’m trying to look less feminine” clothes. And I’m not even saying there is something wrong with not wanting to look feminine. That’s actually fine. I’m saying that if you make that choice, then there must be a reason and “because people shouldn’t pay attention to my looks” is a cop-out reason (and counterproductive, because people aren’t going to say “wow, that person who may or may not be female and it doesn’t matter anyway is really smart” they’re going to say “wow, that person is ugly and styleless.”)
2) right, but if you can control how you look. I wasn’t confusing easy and likely to happen. I was trying to point out that you were equating them which I didn’t think was fair. At a grand scale (winning the nobel prize for psychology vs. winning the diva search) there is just as much random chance and subjective opinion in either case. On a small scale (being a good student, being an attractive person) its much more objective and controllable. Fashion sense is plenty stable. At least as much as academic achievement. Subjective, maybe. But that doesn’t make it any less real. I think I can definitively say that Cindy Crawford has much better fashion sense than Bill Gates just as easily as I can definitively say that Maya Angelou is a much better poet than Jerome Bettis. As discussed with above, I think its kind of a cop-out to say it isn’t. Or it doesn’t matter. I think that with looks, people are sensitive and so they like to pretend it doesn’t matter. But you enjoy watching American Idol (and the clone shows), right? Isn’t singing ability subjective on some level? But would you discourage Evelyn from wanting to be a successful singer or dancer? Then why discourage her from wanting to be a successful model or beauty queen? Is that making any sense?
And no, I meant Venus. I looked it up. I was actually going to say Serena originally, but she’s a fashion designer not an interior designer, and I couldn’t find any proof that she actually went to school for it (she may have, I dunno). Plus, I liked that interior design and modeling were unrelated, a opposed to fashion and modeling.
Part I of huge message about women, clothes, workplace
[{I never understood women who try to dress like men because they think that no one will take them seriously if they look hot or express any sexuality or femininity.}]
That’s because you’re not a woman. I think it’s a very very careful balancing act –one which I agonize over even though I really love clothes AND shopping.
I’m feelnig random, so I’m just going to free-associatedly riff on this subject beccause I have a few stories in mind. They all revolve around teaching, because that is my job.
Story #1: As any of you who know me in RL can attest to, in the past, I have loved playing with my hair. The majority of the time I spent in college, my hair was either shaved to the scalp or dyed every color of the rainbow. When I got to grad school, I expressed a lot of apprehension about continuing this. Most of the time I was there, my hair was one monochromatic shade of black. When I expressed a passing angst that I wished I could have purple hair again, many of my friends said, “Why don’ t you just dye it? You’re in grad school; you teach college English and creative writing. You artsy people are supposed to look like that.” At which point I wanted to slap them.
Because see, until I am both independently wealthy and have a pulitzer winning book of poems, I do rely on someone else for my employment. And it matters what they think about the way I look, act, and express my opinions in the classroom. It’s about getting ahead in your chosen field. I can guarantee you that, unless you work in the tattoos/piercing industry/rock music, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that your boss will have a purple mohawk. It is also unlikely that *if* your boss is a woman, she will not be coming to work showing mad cleavage. I don’t go to work in a strappy low-cut tank top because I *will* get taken less seriously –the market is very competitive and such a look makes SOME PEOPLE just you as either immature or cheap or both. And when they convene a meeting of Very Important People to decide who gets contracts and who doesn’t, I sure don’t want anyone thinking about my breasts.
Story #2 coming up.
Re: Part I of huge message about women, clothes, workplace
don’t make the mistake of assuming that by “dress femininely” I mean dress trampy or slutty. There’s a big difference. A HUGE difference in fact. I’m not saying come to work looking like Britney Spears. I’m saying don’t come to work dressed like Bill Gates. You’re actually quite wrong in the assumption that a successful female business woman wouldn’t wear something exceptionally feminine. In fact, women in business are far more likely to wear something feminine than masuline. I work in 60 story sky scraper with tons of corportate women in the bank, law, and business worlds. Trust me on this one. More later, once I’ve read the rest of your stories.
Part 2 of very long message about women, clothes, workplace
Story #2: For Linda Flower’s Community and Literacy class, I actually wrote a paper called Resistant Appearance and Work Identity. We were mentoring “inner city youths” on “literacy and the culture of work.” At the time, I believe, my hair was cut in a short bob and colored a bright raspberry. I wrote two case studies about these two boys that I had mentored: Thomas and Jamal. We talked a lot about getting a job that semester. It was something the three of us were extremely apprehensive and resentful about, I think, but we all had to get one. Granted, I was graduating from college, and they needed after school jobs, but money was money and we were all, in our own ways, freaking out that we’d have to completely ditch our external personae to get a job.
The boys were having a really hard time getting interviews because they would go into a mall, dressed in their weekend clothes, go into the FootLocker or the Orange Julius, ask for an interview, and the manager would be like, “Um, sorry. We don’t need anyone right now and we don’t anticipate hiring forever and ever so don’t fill out an application.” The managers thought they were baby thugs. I hadn’t gone on any interviews yet but I was getting extreme pressure from my parents, and other adults in my life, that it was time to “grow up and get rid of that hair and that eveningware you like to wear during the day.”
The thesis of my paper was that resistence to workplace attire happens when the background you come from (goth, punk, b-boy, christina aguilera follower) requires you to make drastic shifts in your appearance. Because if whatever subculture you belong to relies at all on appearance, it feels like changing your appearance makes a drastic shift in your Self. That appearance is sort of a self resume, and that’s why it’s hard to give up. The problem is that the things we wear are signs but *for different people they DO NOT signify the same thing.* Meaning, a black lacy camisole, bondage choker, and dark lipstick might signify sexy and gothy TO ME but to my boss it signifies “probably on drugs/will dip in the register/ will not show up for work on time.” Yes, this sucks. And in an ideal world where the boss gets to sit down with every candidate and have a personal in-depth conversation so that we can convince him or her of our intellgence, diligence, good character, etc. maybe it wouldn’t matter if Thomas looked like a rapper or if I looked like the lead singer for Rasputina. Or maybe it would. Maybe the customers would steer clear. Maybe the parents would pull their kids out of my class. Maybe my boss would say that I am providing a distracting learning environment.
Story #3 coming up.
Re: Part 2 of very long message about women, clothes, workplace
I totally agree with everything said here. That’s kind of my point. (well, I don’t know that I really feel that in an ideal world people wouldn’t judge on appearance. I think that the ability to make a statement with your appearance is a good thing, if used correctly).
Again… more later.
Part 3 of very long message….
I’m sure you’ll be glad to know that this is the final part of the message. I’m getting sick of thinking about it. 🙂
So, I read this article awhile back about this woman who taught in a fairly conservative school district. She taught K-12 –I don’t remember which grade. She got pregnant and kept teaching right up until it was time to have the baby. Of course, during the last trimester she looked very very pregnant. It become difficult for her to find clothes that would cover her large belly. During class one day, she was doing something slightly strenuous, like erasing the board, stretching, moving desks around –something –when her shirt came untucked or unfastened or something, and ta-da, her pregnant belly was suddenly on view to everyone. Just a stupid wardobe malfunction, right? Forget about it and move on, right? She was actually *sued* by the parents because her clothes were a distraction to the students.
Granted, this is an extreme case. But, for most jobs, women have a lot to think about when they get dressed for work. More so then men, I believe.
I know that you, chrismaverick, would probably deny that you would take a woman less seriously because she showed off her feminine side at work. But you’re not the person in charge. Also, there’s a lot of different points of view on what constitutes “feminine” and what is veering into the territory of “she looks like a tart.” It’s going to be different for every workplace, probably every supervisor. Just as you judge some guy for coming to work in “poorly fitting dockers and flannel shirt,” and I probably wouldn’t notice, there is some supervisor out there who is not comfortable with the tightness, shortness, strappiness of my shirt, whereas you wouldn’t count it against me.
Re: Part 3 of very long message….
ok… now all the comments… I’ll start with a brief comment on this story (like I did with the other 2)and then go to the overall comments.
see, in this case, I would argue that the problem here is that the courts should have protected the woman. Shit happens. She (at least in your telling of the case) was making every effort to be appropriate and something bad happened. Tough break, but oh well. You don’t sue over that. Or if you do, you should lose. In the end, this isn’t really an allegory about appropriate dress, its an allegory about a failing of the legal system.
Now onto the overarching comments for all three stories, summed up in the final paragraph you wrote here:
Again, you are confusing sexy and feminine. Or moreover, I think you are assuming that I am. I’m not. You’ll note that I pointed out that Viki’s outfit above, while perfectly hot for a wrestling photoshoot, wouldn’t be school/work appropriate. But the same is true for the other extreme. Its just not PC to say so.
Am I in charge of my office right now? No, but I do work there. And there have been times that I have been in charge. In the past several years I have worked in a whole bunch of different aspects of corporate America and I can tell you without fail that your assumption is wrong. Bosses in corporate America, both male and female, both young and old, would very much prefer that their workstaff be as attractive as possible.
For one, simply put, its better for business. For another, its simply more professional. This isn’t even just clothing. The company I’m with right now, as well as several of our clients actually have what they call lifetime health initiatives. Basically, this means that they actually have employee incentives to get them to lose weight and be in atheletic shape.
There are tons of Fortune 500 companies that actually have rules against women wearing pants. Not all of them. Maybe not even half. But it is certainly not uncommon to have that sort of rule. The assumption that many women make is “men won’t take me seriously because I have boobs. I must cover the boobs and make myself appear unattractive to be as masculine as possible and survive in the male world.” That assumption is quite quite faulty. The reality of the situation is “men won’t take you seriously because you have boobs, but if you try to look masculine they’ll actually take you even less seriously, so embrace your femininity, use it to your advantage, and fight to do better than making 80 cents to my dollar.” I’m obviously not saying that’s right. I’m saying that it is.
I was hoping that I’d get a couple opinions here from some more corporate people. But I haven’t really been so lucky. Suffice it to say, what I’m really getting at here is that your story #2 is actually quite representative of the world. Not just the retail world. But the business world. My problem is, and the point I was trying to make is, that I think a lot of women assume that the proper outfit to wear is a frumpy one that makes them look less attractive and less distracting. A lot of men simply don’t understand the issue at all and therefore don’t put any thought into it. Both of these types of people are as wrong as your Thomas and Jamal.
Look at the Victoria’s Secret Suits and Separates collection. That is pretty acceptable office attire for women. Is it trampy? Not at all. It’s what is appropriate. Dressing like Bill Gates on the other hand, while not necessarilly “inappropriate” just isn’t going to get you ahead anywhere either.
Btw, I tried to find a plus size online store to link to just to point out that I was talking about the clothes and not just models. But I don’t really know the names of that many plus size stores. And of the ones I do know, like Lane Bryant, they don’t show the clothes with women inside them. That said, you’ll also note that Lane Bryant’s Suit Collection is also quite feminine and not at all dumpy.
Another big reply (section 1)
[[Am I in charge of my office right now? No, but I do work there. And there have been times that I have been in charge. In the past several years I have worked in a whole bunch of different aspects of corporate America and I can tell you without fail that your assumption is wrong. Bosses in corporate America, both male and female, both young and old, would very much prefer that their workstaff be as attractive as possible.]]
I think in my attempt to exaggerate to show a point, I may have understated this point:
[[I think it’s a very very careful balancing act –one which I agonize over even though I really love clothes AND shopping.]]
[[But, for most jobs, women have a lot to think about when they get dressed for work. More so then men, I believe.]]
I think that one has to pursue a middle ground here. I’m not saying that to dress femininely is to automatically dress like a slut. You’ve seen my wardrobe. I think I manage to be feminine and also not slutty. I’m just saying it’s challenging to show off your attractive feminine bits, while minimizing the ones you don’t like, and still dress appropriately for work. And sometimes, like the woman in the frumpy picture, you just don’t feel like it in the morning.
Please don’t assume I haven’t worked in corporate America. I had at least seven different office temp jobs between the years of 99 and 02. I’ve worked in HR. I’ve worked in PR. I’ve answered phones. I’ve received clients. I’ve done interviews. I’ve worked in payroll. I’ve processed insurance claims. And, like you, I watch everyone’s clothes, because I’m sort of obsessed with clothes.
And now, the clothes! What gorgeous clothes in the pictures… on gorgeous girls. if you look at those Victoria’s secret suits –you are just not going to look good in them unless you are a size 8 or below. I think 8 might be pushing it actually. Those girls can pull off those tight, tight stretch suits because they have no ass, and a railthin waistline. I don’t consider myself heavy, but I’m definitely not skinny, and I would look awful in most of those outfits, the way they have them paired. That’s not to say that individual pieces wouldn’t look good on me, paired with something else. But I think the thing that you like about them is that they show off the model’s lithe, gorgeous silhouette. Most of the women I’ve seen the office don’t have silhouettes like that. Including me.
Re: Another big reply (section 2)
I should point out that, aesthetically, I think wearing a suit actually is an easier choice in some ways because it makes one automatically feel –and look — pulled together, without much guesswork. But I can say that I would definitely not want to wear a suit to work every day (or any day really, heh). So I can see how people end up going to work looking like the woman in the white pants and denim shirt. Remember how you complain that you couldn’t wear jeans to work? Maybe women want to be comfortable too. Tight clothes, even the stretchy ones, aren’t really that comfy. They nip in at your waist, feel constricting under the arms or in the shoulders. If you get a shirt that is short enough to show off your whole bum, assuming you’d want to, you constantly have to take care that it doesn’t ride up and show off some skin accidentally. A lot of those Vicki’s blazers were really tight and lowcut. Notice how they did not put them on a size 12 girl with a D cup. And those tucked-in styles look really cute on Tyra, but on any girl with a belly, including me, they would look…. like I had shoved a small loaf of bread in there. Major fashion faux pas. Seriously, I’m not saying all these things just to refute you. I’m saying them because I’m a woman and I have tried all these different things. I’ve gone to work in a suit. I’ve gone to work in the baggy pants and baggy shirt (probably in February or if I was running insanely late). I’ve tried the cute tight shirts and the tight pants. I’ve had one tight-shirt wardrobe malfunction in front of the Director of Graduate Studies (she was on the acceptance committee at OSU, where I was at the time planning on applying for the PhD. She was also teaching my class.)
So, you might wonder what my answer is to this dilemma. Because, although I that many of those Vicki’s outfits are ridiculous for average to above average-sized women for work (and the others are suits), I also don’t want to look dumpy like the woman in the pants. There’s a middle ground. Tailored trousers without an ultra-low-rise waist. A long skimming (and slimming) tunic over top of them. These pieces hint at curves but don’t shove them in your face. Wear a dress or a pencil skirt with a top that falls to your hips to hide the belly. Show as much arm as is appropriate. Wear jewelry or a belt or some other accessories to show your personality. The wardrobe will change with the situation.
But most of all, mind your own appearance first and don’t worry too much about anyone else’s.
Re: Another big reply (section 2)
one issue at a time:
1) Yes, comfort is important. I complain about not being allowed to wear jeans, but there is a level that I wouldn’t go below. And the difference is, I am aware that by wearing jeans, I’d be making a statement. Simply put, I have no real desire to climb the corporate ladder. Wearing jeans and a t-shirt to work is more my rebelling against the machine. Its me wanting to look like crap because I don’t want to fit in where I am. I am more addressing people who don’t understand why they should be forced to wear such clothing in order to fit in. People who say that “clothes don’t matter.” They do.
2) in the previous comment, I linked to several plus size stores with different clothing. I’m actually not recommending wearing a suit every day, btw (though a lot of people I work with do). Its just that that’s the easiest thing to point to. The VS link actually had separates too. I used VS because I knew exactly what I was looking for and where it would be and it was 3 in the morning and I just wanted to get the comments done. Its not even the best place to shop for work clothes. For Steph, for instance, I like New York and Company when I am trying to get her stuff to wear to work. It’s all about image and personality though, so YMMV.
3) Again, I’m talking about professionalism and femininity, not sexiness. If we were talking about “clothing women should wear to snag a man” that would be a different thing entirely. If we’re talking about “clothing women should wear to snag a mav” there is yet another answer. This is why I am using business clothing in examples and not clubwear or lingerie or something (though, surprisingly, it turns out it is a million times easier to find plus size lingerie models online than plus size business models) My point was more calling attention to the difference between going to work looking like Tyra and going to work looking like Urkel. You’re actually not in either camp. And really, I don’t expect many people are at either extreme.
4) worrying about the world outside of me is what makes this blog so interesting. If you’d rather I could go back to talking smack about tennis with Max, Steph and Geoff, but really, would you find that anywhere near interesting enough to put this much effort in to pretending I am wrong? 😉
Re: Another big reply (section 1)
I know you worked in corporate america, hence I know you know that at the end of the day, I am right. That said, as you pointed out, you were a temp. But think about it, how many people have you ever seen climb the corporate ladder dressed like the woman in the frumpy picture. I mean male as well as female. It is a sad unfair fact of life that men have something of an advantage, so they’re are going to be some men that get farther dressing like this than women do. But all in all, the man is still better off dressing like this. And simillarly, a woman, of any size, has a better shot in better clothes than in worse ones.
And I am not talking about the women’s bodies. You’re completely ignoring the entire last paragraph where I said, “I’m talking about the clothes not they’re bodies” and linked to Lane Bryant. I work in a financial analyst consultant office. Probably half my co-workers are women, of varying ages, shapes and sizes. And I can tell you without fail that for the most part they dress up and not down. Here are some links to plus size suits just to show my point:
Jessica Landon
Roamans
Lane Bryant
All quite sharp, all quite appropriate. None of them smaller than a 12W. (which is by no means huge, I’ll grant, but that’s just where “plus size” stores start) Now I will grant that any model, petite or plus size is going to be “hotter” than a “regular” woman, but that’s just the game. The office manager at my company is by no means a small woman or a young woman. But I can honestly say that in the nine months I’ve worked there, she has not looked “bad” a single day. That is true of most of the women I work with. Fewer of the men. I also want to point out that I have the exact same problems with men not looking their best as I do with women. Its just that you’re not really complaining about my stances on the men, so that’s why the conversation is going this way.