ChrisMaverick dotcom

This is where we live…

It is August 15th, 2017…. The President of the United States of America just equated Robert E. Lee to George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. The President of the United States of America just said that Nazis are better than people protesting Nazis because at least they had permits. This is where we live now. This is real life.

So I think about Donald Trump a lot.

I know… we all do.

I think about him a lot… and I have since he descended down the fabled escalator and announced his bid to take over the country. People who read what I post regularly will know that I was pretty afraid he was going to win from the very beginning. It’s certainly not a secret where my politics lie here. I’ve been pretty upfront about it. Earlier I even posted my little rant about goading a Trump supporter into being stupid over his view on Colin Kaepernick’s anti-national anthem protests. And I stand by everything I said there. See, I think it’s important to make sure racist idiots are very vocally idiots. I know they aren’t going away just because they’re quiet. And, as distasteful as they are, I’d rather have a bunch of idiots walking around in public spouting hatred and stupidity loudly so that other people might say “wow, I was inclined to kind of share in that viewpoint…  but this other person who is clearly a moron is saying the same thing… so maybe I should rethink my position here.”

For similar reasons, I refuse to be the person who won’t call Donald Trump the president. I totally accept his presidency. He is our reality. He is where we live. Ignoring him won’t make him go away. We need to accept that the President of the United States is a giant racist moron. We need to accept that this is our reality. That is the only way in which we can get better.

The moron from yesterday blocked me. I’m actually kind of sad about that. I was expecting he’d rant and rave on that post and look even stupider. He didn’t. That’s his right. BUT, I have been informed that he is ranting and raving defending white supremacists on his Facebook page. And luckily, even though I can no longer be there, I’m told there are other “liberal pigs” picking up where I left off. I’m sad I am missing that great fun. But I still think it’s necessary. As much fun as it may be to punch Nazis… I think it might be even more important to make idiot racist morons look as stupid as possible on every possible occasion. Change isn’t fast… it’s really slow. And this is part of it.

I’ve said before, that I said after the election to some of my colleague grad students “we study the fall of civilizations and cultures for a living. When are you ever going to get another chance to do it from the inside?”

And because of that…. I just want to note the date…. for when future archaeologists, anthropologists, literary critics and cultural theorists are studying the ruins of the civilization once known as America…..

August 15, 2017.  71 years, 11 months, 13 days after the end of WWII. The day that the sitting President of the United States of America held a press conference to say that Nazis were better than anti-Nazi protestors. That’s right… I repeat, the 45th President of the United States, has officially endorsed the Nazis.

94 comments for “This is where we live…

  1. avatar
    August 15, 2017 at 3:07 pm

    I will dance when he dies.

  2. avatar
    August 15, 2017 at 3:08 pm

    It’s funny this Trump supporter we both argued with was against Colin Kaepernick’s right to free speech, yet he defended for TWO HOURS the Nazis right to free speech. I wasted TWO HOURS listening to him defend Nazis, naively (always naive) hoping that he was was just confused and we could have a reasonable conversation. You would think I would learn from this after the 50th time.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 3:27 pm

      Right. This is why o specifically didn’t name him in the other post but made it pretty clear that it was a giant fuck you to him. I’m not really all that surprised that he blocked me.

  3. avatar
    August 15, 2017 at 3:51 pm

    You dont mind if I share this?

  4. avatar
    August 15, 2017 at 4:23 pm

    “Okay, what about the alt-left that came charging at us?”
    He did more than just equate Washington with Lee.

  5. avatar
    August 15, 2017 at 4:54 pm

    Wait.
    What?

    Holy shit.
    ?

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 4:55 pm

      Yep. This really happened. It was… interesting.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 5:29 pm

      November last year, a friend solicited thoughts on the two candidates. I offered my concerns about both – below is what I wrote about Trump. The emotional impact of seeing much of that become reality is much more difficult than I thought it could be. Contemplating it intellectually wasn’t enough.

      “Trump enjoys adulation and believes in the just-world hypothesis. Regarding the second: that is, things happen to a person that is fitting for that person. If something bad happens to a person, it’s because that person is bad. (See his comments about McCain and other POWs.) He sees being wealthy as proof he is correct and a good person. Anybody opposing him is de facto a bad person. There’s no room to see something from the other person’s perspective, to realize that two people could have two different ideas yet both be right. Also, he seems to be setting up that any loss or setback he has is a result of conspiracy against him, rather than any fault of his or his ideas. Regarding adulation, Trump garners this by using “us vs them” tribal mentality. It goes beyond, say, “US vs Russia” – it’s truly “me vs anybody not like me,” from any of racial, gender, philosophical, religious, ability, etc. grounds. This sort of cult of personality uses and *creates* hate of one group for another. I saw a photo of a t-shirt at presumably a Trump rally that said “Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required.” I find that attitude incredibly concerning – if somebody disagrees with me they deserve death? No. I don’t know how much influence he could have as a President, but under his presidency at worst I see a level of domestic violence that would be devastating, and internationally the US being thought of similarly to the Philippines and their new president’s bluster including a significant loss of power, respect and stature in the world. I think he sees being mean to people both as a means to gather support as well as an end used to justify his own privilege. I don’t think he has any interest in helping anybody.”

  6. avatar
    August 15, 2017 at 5:23 pm

    He is repulsive!!

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 6:44 pm

      Watching people reach to try and defend him is amazing.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 8:32 am

      it all is amazing and outrageous! He says white supremacists are fine people?! Are you kidding me?! He also said he needed time to think of his responses yesterday to get his facts straight?! I haven’t heard a straight fact out of this fool yet, he tweets random shit all the time.

  7. avatar
    August 15, 2017 at 6:57 pm

    The claim that Donald Trump failed to initially condemn the White Nationalists is an outright lie.

    He condemned the hatred, bigotry, and violence on “many sides.” It is obvious to anyone who isn’t rapidly and blindly anti-Trump that he believed that included the White Nationalists.

    The media seems to be spinning this incredibly simplistic narrative where all the protesters are bad and all the counter-protesters are good, which is why they were set into a frenzy by Trump’s condemnation of violence and hatred on “many sides.”

    But Trump is actually right on this, and his is arguments are way more nuanced than the narrative portrayed by the media. He noted that not all the protesters were White Nationalists, some were merely conservatives who opposed removing a historical monument.

    Additionally, not all the counter-protesters were just or peaceful. Some of them were members of Antifa, who came looking for a fight and are known for their violent tactics. Many came looking to violently disrupt a lawful assembly of people expressing their political beliefs, awful as those beliefs may be.

    This is, without a doubt, a more accurate and unbiased depiction of the events that occurred. The media is essentially accusing Trump of being sympathetic to White Nationalists merely for acknowledging that some of the counter-protesters (in addition to the White Nationalists/protesters) were hateful and violent too, which is completely absurd.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 7:06 pm

      Jeff, I know you hate being called privileged. I get that you don’t understand it…

      But lets put this really really simply. You are a middle-aged, middle-class, heterosexual white man. That’s just true.

      No one is misreporting what Trump said. We listened to his words. And a large majority of people who are not you are offended… not by the media… but by his specific words.

      Now, I want you to think for… lets say… 60 whole seconds minimum… before you answer this next thing.

      Is it your stance, that as a middle aged, middle class, heterosexual white man…. you are better qualified to tell me when I am allowed to be offended by racist behavior from a public figure than my brain is.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 7:17 pm

      You can be offended by anything you want, just like that other guy can be offended by kapernick. The first amendment gives people the right to say stupid and offensive things. The ACLU fought to get the nazis the permit to assemble there. Personally, I hate them. They are an affront to legitimate people who believe in classically liberal beliefs. But I respect their right to be stupid.

      I agree with you on this: trump used awfully poor words to get what I think should have been his point across. UVA students were protesting an administrator who quoted Thomas Jefferson just because he owned slaved, yet he also founded the school. People are heading down a slippery slope of censorship in a quest not to be offended.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 7:28 pm

      Also not the issue I am talking about here. You’re trying to defend him… and you’re reaching. Every other issue is irrelevant right now. We’re talking about a specific isolated incident.

      For the record, I 100% stand for the Nazi’s right to have a protest. That’s not very popular with liberals and I’ve gotten into fights about it. I’m all for them assembling… and I’m actually AGAINST the idea that it’s ok to walk up and punch them.

      That’s not what we’re talking about.

      What we’re talking about is Trump is claiming:
      1) The left was just as wrong here as the nazis (not the right… not even the alt-right… the nazis)
      2) Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson deserve the same respect as George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.
      3) the nazis had the moral high ground because they had a right to be there because they got permits.

      These were three specific points that the president made… and they’re points that you’re attempting to defend here. And I’m telling you… not as a cultural theorist as i do in previous posts… I’m telling you as a 43 year old black man living in America… BOTH of you are being MASSIVE FUCKING RACISTS here….

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 7:37 pm

      1. Is the Dallas shooter better/worse/same as the asshole Nazi who ran over those people?
      2. I don’t think he said they deserve the same respect but was instead referring to the slippery slope of removing their statues because they were slave owners.
      3. These Nazis are pathetic clowns. The left gave them the attention they wanted. They are really not a threat to anyone. If blm really cared about saving lives, they would be protesting street gangs in Chicago that shot 700 or antifa would be picking fights with ms13 who is kidnapping young girls and using them as sex slaves.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 7:39 pm

      And your use of the term racist here really dilutes the term. I hold no common beliefs with the Nazis. Sorry I don’t play into your victims for your liking however.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 7:39 pm

      Victimhood

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 7:46 pm

      1) the same. But I’m not complaining about trump’s statements about the driver. I felt he was a little light. But I’m behind him on it. The issue is his statements about the other people.

      2) you are not qualified to argue how slippery slope arguments work against me. Sorry. You’re just not. Here I am speaking as an academic here. There actually is a side point about history and the objective failings of the founding fathers. Neither you or the president understand the nuances to make it. The point is in attempting to argue a slippery slope he said something that is massively offensive. You are trying to defend it.

      3) again i didn’t ask about Chicago. Or even BLM here. I asked specifically about nazis in this incident. You are attempting to change the subject. Again… your stance here is “but the black movement is worse than the nazis”

      That is the racist part. I get that you don’t get why you are a racist. Honestly. I’m not even judging you for it. You’re not my student. You don’t pay me to make you better.

      What I’m doing is pointing out the failures in your argument so that other people come by and say “wow, yeah…. Jeffrey Kertis is being pretty racist and offensive here. I better try to avoid being like him.”

      Simple question. Ignoring all else “do you support what the president said today about the nazis”

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 8:12 pm

      So once again your argument boils down to “I am so much smarter than you, you don’t even understand why you are wrong”. You should go work for Google then. Put that high intelligence to work.

      I support what I think the president was trying to say, but I don’t think that that was what he actually said.

      I don’t know what is in his head, but as I said before, he blew it on the speech.

      But even clear words can be interpreted differently, I get that. So go be offended. I don’t hate you for it. 99.99% of white people don’t hate you either. We do condemn that .01% that does.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 8:40 pm

      I am much smarter than you. But that was not my point. My point there was specifically that you don’t understand rhetorical traditions well enough to explain to me how slippery slopes works. One of us gets paid to teach the class that covers that to college students. The other is you.

      That’s the only part of this where I am pulling education on you.

      No, my argument is much more personal than this… This is about you being unable to understand what it is about your actions and beliefs that is racially offensive. You really nailed it in the end…

      See, in your view it’s 99.99% of white people are ok and only .01% are racist and thank god I’m in the 99.99%. I’m telling you… you’re not. Your numbers are off. It’s not 99.99% vs. .01%. It’s much higher. It’s not most… it really isn’t. But you’re on the WRONG side. You’re on the racist side and you want to believe you aren’t so you are rationalizing it. I’m not comparing you to James Alex Fields. I’m not comparing you David Duke. If it makes you feel better, I will say unequivocally that you are a better person than David Duke.

      No… what I am saying is that on your words… and yours alone, YOU are being racist. YOU are being offensive. Maybe less offensive.. in much the same way that Duke bothers me more than you do. BUT you ARE being a racist.

      I get that you don’t see it. But the argument that you are making here is about on par in offense as the one that Trump made earlier today. And that’s not because I’m black. It’s not because I wanted Hillary Clinton (if you were reading my blog regularly, you’d see that I wasn’t a fan). I’m judging you purely on the merits of what you’re saying. Things that are offensive to black people and frankly jews across America. The reason people get frustrated with Trump isn’t because we think he’s going to run us over in a sports car personally. It’s because you seem to think that you’re great because at least you don’t run down people with your car that means your extremely problematic behavior isn’t offensive and that anyone who is offended by it is playing the victim.

      NO… that’s not it. Just to pick people who have commented publicly on this post… Peter Ravn Rasmussen, Domenic Migliore, Reuven Goren, Mark Lang and Angie Bobak are all white. As are Carl Edward Mitchell III, Anthony LoGreco, Todd C Gleason, Melanie Wollstonecraft Shelley, Jeff Mink, Kelli Ireland and Kathleen L. Habel Willard, all of whom have reshaped this post. And I’ll let them speak for themselves… but I imagine each and every single one of them, if they bother to read what you’ve been saying here will say that they are offended by your words as racist behavior. Not because they’re victims… not because they’re black. But because what you’re saying is extremely racist. And I’m sure Donté Dunnagan, who is black, will feel that way. I just tagged them all by name so they can weigh in and say for themselves.

      I know I can’t change your mind. I even wrote a blog about why I can’t change your mind. http://www.chrismaverick.com/wp/2017/01/26/all-facts-are-alternative-some-are-more-alternative-than-others/

      But that doesn’t mean I won’t try. If not to educate you, but because I know that some other random person who isn’t you but is a little more open minded will come by and say “I don’t know what to think… I felt like Trump had a point. But this Jeffrey Kertis fellow seems like he’s maybe got the best grip on reality here because for some reason he is offending Mav (and if they answer, I expect the other people). So I explain things for their benefit.

      And here is my explanation: At essence this post is me saying “I don’t like that the President of the United States just endorsed Nazis”

      Your defense is “that’s unfair. He didn’t endorse Nazis. He just pointed out that there are evil black people too. And really not all the people at the nazi rally were bad. So stop playing the race card, if you really cared you’d be complaining about all the black people who kill people because that’s the real problem.”

      And at the end of the day, the problem is that you don’t understand that your defense doesn’t make it better. In fact, it is SOOOOO much worse and more racist than what I said in the first place.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 8:58 pm

      Since I was tagged, my two cents is that Nazis are a hate group. BLM and Antifa are not.

      Any group is always going to be judged by the worst of its constituency. It’s why this false equivalence is possible in the first place. But it’s a false equivalence because the modern day Nazis are founded on the idea that whites are superior, and need to be separated from the other races. It’s white separatism. The real equivalence would be say, a comparison to the New Black Panther Party, a black separatist group. Black Lives Matter was founded on the idea that maybe people should look at how blacks and other minorities are treated by legal entities. Antifa is harder to peg down, especially in the states, but has roots to old anti Nazi/Communism Germany. And while I don’t condone the more violent actions of either group(Antifa especially), they’re not the same. My big problem is that Trump’s remarks make them seem that way. And people like you believe they are the same, which normalizes Nazis.

      More importantly, why do we need confederate monuments anyway? What purpose do they serve other than to glorify people who literally fought against our country?

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 9:08 pm

      Right. My point to tagging Carl and the others was to illustrate to Jeffrey that in the same way he (and Trump) is saying “oh god… most of us white folk aren’t like that driver. Don’t think we’re all that evil, most of us believe this…” most white people are looking at him and saying “oh god… most of us white folk aren’t like Jeffrey Kertis. Don’t think we’re all that evil…” and his failure to realize that is kind of the problem.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 9:11 pm

      Hell, even Mike Pence and Ted Cruz…. two republicans who’s politics I personally disagree with vastly more than I do with Trump’s are saying “no no no no…. not us… we aren’t with him on this”

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 9:20 pm

      Forget Nazis, BLM, commie liberals, etc. Let’s be totally objective. I am willing to do it. Let’s say NAMBLA wanted to organize a peaceful protest for the legalization of sex with minors… in front of an elementary school. Then a group of parents tried to shut them down. As a supporter of the 1st Amendment, would you defend them?

      Me? Personally, if they are peaceful, I would. Just like I would defend a peaceful Nazi protest…
      However, if they began ramming their cocks into crowds of children, no…. I don’t think I would. Because that is child rape.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 9:25 pm

      It’s late so I’ll be brief. I’m with Mav.

      Moreover, Jeffrey Kertis, until you can come to terms with your white privilege you’ll have a tough time moving on. I ought to have some et ceteras but it’s much too late for that.

      BTW Mav, I love your posts. Any time I think I have something approaching a good grasp on some political matter you reveal how much deeper the onion goes. Thanks.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 9:29 pm

      Totally agree. If you’re asking me as mayor if I’ll issue a protest permit to NAMBLA. Absolutely. I’ll also issue one to the Nazis. In fact I’ll issue one to the “National Organization Devoted To Shooting Mav In The Head And Fucking His Dead Skull”. I’d do it without hesitation. Because I believe in that right.

      But if you ask me as president how do I feel about any of those groups I can unequivocally say “yeah. Those are all bad people” it’s a separate issue.

      They have a right to exist. They have a right to protest. But I’m not going to endorse them.

      Here’s another example. At the end of my grandfather’s life he was suffering from cancer. He also had a heart condition. One day during a routine doctor’s appointment he had a massive heart attack and died.

      I can say without a doubt that a heart attack killed my grandfather. It just did. That’s just a fact. That doesn’t mean that I think that cancer is ok. But Jeff is doing the equivalent of looking at my claim that a heart attack killed my grandfather and saying “why are we talking about the heart attack. What about cancer? How can you complain about heart attacks when cancer kills so many people?!?!?”

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 9:39 pm

      I believe it was yesterday..a guy was explaining to me how we shouldn’t be talking about what the Nazis did, or who they killed..there is much more important things to talk about. He then stated that whoever is bringing the drugs in this country etc NEEDS equal coverage.That’s right. And he didn’t know the whole story about Charlottesville because he so involved with being a Dad.. This is more of that. So, far Ive seen Obama’s name tossed in here, Hillary…and how this guy believes meant one thing and not an another..Saying that the Nazis where basically in the right because they got permits, is a huge slap in the face. And if you can just continue making arguments for Trump when he is saying this nonsense..you are what is wrong with this world. What would it take for you to go Trump is wrong?

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 10:00 pm

      Jeffrey Kertis, I’m with Mav on this as well. He says what I’m feeling much more eloquently than I could, so, I’ll keep it simple.
      Trump mishandled this situation from the beginning and has continued to do so every time he has spoke about the events in Charlottesville.
      How can you honestly say that you are against nazis, white supremicists and other hate groups while defending a man who can’t condemn them and their ideology without rationalizing and pointing fingers?

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 10:08 pm

      So, let’s see what I spot in Mr. Kertis’s comments here: he claims that antifa counterprotesters are solely responsible for the Charlottesville violence; he ignores the fact that the monuments being proposed for removal are not just for slave owners but for CONFEDERATES specifically; by saying that BLM should go protest gang violence, he essentially says that blacks can only blame themselves for police brutality; he says that white supremacists openly calling for ethnic cleansing are no threat but specifically cites black and Hispanic violent criminals, and then claims to not be a racist; he asks us not to judge Nazis on the actions of one, thereby ignoring the fact that we’re judging the Nazis based on what they advocate and what they do as a group; and, throughout it all, he makes repeated attempts to deflect and distract from the core point of the original post. If the Nazis had hired a PR man to defend them in this thread, it would look pretty much like Mr. Kertis’s performance, I think.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 11:02 pm

      I’m tired, I shouldn’t even be awake right now, and I’m kind of in a bad mood because of this shit, so I’m going to be blunt. There is one side that says, unequivocally, “We want white people to have more rights than non-white people. White people are superior”. They will happily tell you that I’m portraying their opinions accurately. They march around with swastikas, or happily join in a protest with other people who are brandishing swastikas. There is another side that says, “We will fight for all people to be treated equally under the law, regardless of skin color (or other bullshit reason)”. Treating these two as morally equivalent is fucking racist. White supremacy is the most vile of evil. Resisting it is a moral imperative.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 11:14 pm

      Also, attempting to deny rights to a subset of people because they have the wrong color of skin, or the wrong genitalia, or whatever bullshit reason why they don’t deserve the same rights as others, is an inherently violent act.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 11:59 pm

      Also with Mav. Good people ignoring fascists and going along to get along is how we got WWII. You’ve heard of that little dust-up?

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 12:30 am

      I have no particular desire to spend much of my time interacting with Mr. Kertis, so I’ll just boil my response down to essentials.

      1. Yes, Mr. Kertis, you are definitely a racist.

      2. Yes, Trump has unequivocally sided with Nazis — he even made a very revealing slip of the tongue where he said “us” about them.

      3. As a European, my opinion is that free speech is an important part of democracy, and indeed of any civil society — my nation had freedom of speech by law for nearly a century before we had democracy. However, giving people free speech does not mean that you are obliged to allow them to conspire against democracy. We’ve seen where that leads. Fascism (and similar anti-democratic ideologies) is a threat, a parasitic infestation of the body politic, and it must be eradicated.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 3:26 am

      For a protest ostensibly about Robert E Lee’s statue, there was an astounding lack of chanting regarding sculpture.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 3:37 am

      Reuven Goren Back when I grew up Civil War reenacting (I was a teen and it was 25 years ago so give me a bit of a pass here), I owned a t-shirt with a rebel flag on it and the slogan “Heritage, not Hate.” Now, of course I wouldn’t want that today, and there’s a whole lot to unpack in those three words. That said, I didn’t see a single person protesting who even remotely tried to make the distinction that even I, in my red southern family, understood as a child.

      I’ll also remark that Trumps comments about Washington and Jefferson are precisely what I’ve been hearing conservatives say… excellent play to the base. We need to be more vocal that while all owned slaves, Washington and Jefferson founded the country while Lee and Jackson tried- and for four years succeeded- in tearing it apart. That is not a talking point I’ve heard beyond liberal sources, and disseminating it more while might force a little stopping and thinking.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 4:13 am

      Jeffrey Kertis Alright, Jeffrey, lets assume for a moment that your 99.99% / 0.01% argument is right. And, lets assume your argument that the majority of the people marching were just conservatives who didn’t want the monument taken down, not Nazis or white supremacists.

      If those assumptions are true, then why weren’t all those white supremacist hating conservatives condemning the people marching next to them that were wearing swastikas? It isn’t like the Nazis and white supremacists were hiding. They were flashing their colors like the Jets and Sharks before the big dance fight. According to your belief, no right minded conservative American (of which 99.99% of people are) would miss the opportunity to tell a Nazi or white supremacist that he or she was a complete piece of shit and a stain on the nation.

      Yet, oddly, that didn’t happen in massive numbers. Oddly, these proud Nazis and white supremacists marched shoulder to shoulder with conservatives who considered them the scum of the Earth and didn’t receive endless condemnation. Oddly, when counter protesters from the left condemned the people wearing swastikas, these conservatives defended the character of these Nazis (not just their actions). Oddly, when these Nazis physically assaulted black men, these conservatives did not intervene to stop that assault.

      Your entire premise feels like it is on shaky ground when all of these non-racist, Nazi-hating conservatives you claim were marching for a statue suddenly went completely silent when presented with the opportunity to condemn a literal Nazi.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 4:17 am

      So most of the people who responded do not even believe the Nazis had the right to assemble. But Chris Maverick does. If they had the right to be there, how is trump wrong? Should the cointerprotesters have been there planning violence? Is hate the way to combat hate? Is it racist to believe the first amendment is greater than opposition to Nazis? Does belief in white privilege really equate to judging people by their character not the color of their skin? My other point is that taking on Nazis is the ultimate in virtue signaling. Yeah, they are scum and I don’t support anyone in the march. I even see the argument for removing the statues and am not really opposed. But there were less than 1000 of these people in a country of millions. I don’t see them as a credible threat or having any influence. And feeding them and inciting violence is the wrong course to take when there are so many other problems left unaddressed.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 4:26 am

      Now is not the time to pedantically nit-pick and try to squeeze the president’s “all sides” distribution of blame into the box of meaning you want it to have. Now is the time for clear messages, actions that match, and generous use of Occam’s Razor.

      We’ve seen a whole lot that implies pretty clearly that our president has a great deal of sympathy for the white supremacists and Nazis of our country. It’s sickening.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 4:29 am

      Right to peaceably assemble. Emphasize peaceably.
      However since parsing everything is what you want to do, they had no permit for the night torch march. Nor did they enter the area from the agreed upon methods with the security set out for them for day of.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 4:33 am

      I firmly believe that Nazis have the right to assemble and to petition. I wrote more than one diatribe to that effect in the last few days. Heck, I am a descendant of Jews that were murdered by Nazis during WWII and I would still fight to my last breath to preserve the right of Nazis to assemble and petition.

      So, now that I pass that criteria of being worth responding to, answer my previous question. Why were the non-white supremacist conservatives (of which you claim made up the majority of the rally) not condemning the beliefs and character (not the actions) of the Nazis they were walking side by side with?

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 4:41 am

      I haven’t read the entire thread, so forgive me if this is a repetition. But the night before the “official” protest, the nazi group marched through the streets with torches and yelled “whose streets? Our streets!” and intimidated a group of people who were peacefully praying in a church. They were not being peaceful and I’m betting they didn’t have a permit to do that. (Also, again, nothing to do with the confederate statue.)

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 5:19 am

      Haven’t read the entire thread, so forgive me if this is a repetition. But the night before the “official” protest, the nazi group marched through the town shouting nazi slogans and intimidated a group of people who were peacefully praying in a church. They were not being peaceful, and I’m betting they didn’t have a permit to do that. I have no idea why there were no arrests. Imagine the outcry from the right if this had been BLM (who would never do something like that, by the way). (Also, this friday night thing again had nothing to do with the Confederate statue.)

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 5:49 am

      “Taking on Nazis is the ultimate in virtue signaling.” Ah, yes. “Don’t fight them.” Mr. Kertis, you might as well have said, “Don’t fight US,” because you’ve clearly sided with the Nazis.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 6:21 am

      Just wanna sneak in real fast for the black on black crime “point”. Whites commit more crime statistically, why do I never hear about that?
      Here’s some official statistics to back my point, direct from the FBI page!
      https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/43tabledatadecoverviewpdf

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 7:26 am

      Jeffrey Kertis: Ok, lets unpack this one a piece at a time.

      “So most of the people who responded do not even believe the Nazis had the right to assemble.”

      You don’t know that. Some of them probably do. But most of them didn’t say and those who did actually said that Nazis do have that right. But that doesn’t matter… because:

      “But Chris Maverick does.”

      Exactly… here’s the thing. I pointed out earlier that I disagree with almost everything Mike Pence or Ted Cruz says. So much so that whenever I find myself in agreement with either of them, I have to stop and question myself. I have to say “Ok… am I on the right side here?” In this case, they’re agreeing with me and I think I am. In fact, not only are democrats and liberals agreeing with me on this specific issue, the vast majority of the republican party agrees with me on this issue. The people who are responding to this blog are a mix of my friends and people I don’t know. Some are black, some are white. Some are christian, some are jewish, some are atheists. Some are men and some are women. Some are democrats. Some are republicans. And yet… for the most part we all agree with the single statement that “the president of the United States should, as a matter of course, never even casually endorse the Nazi party after 1939… and certainly not in 2017.” The people who agree with you include the current president… and the nazis. Literally that’s where we are here. Even if you are not a nazi… even if you in your heart think you’re fighting for the right thing. The most vocal allies you have right now… ARE THE FUCKING NAZIS. At some point, it’s probably a good idea to ask yourself “is this the hill I want to die on?”

      “If they had the right to be there, how is trump wrong?”

      He’s not. They absolutely had a right to be there. But that’s not the question he was asked. He was asked “are nazis bad?” and his answer was “they have a right to be there.”

      “Should the cointerprotesters have been there planning violence?”

      Nope.

      “Is hate the way to combat hate?”

      Sometimes.

      “Is it racist to believe the first amendment is greater than opposition to Nazis?”

      Nope.

      “Does belief in white privilege really equate to judging people by their character not the color of their skin?”

      Umm…. the answer here is no… but with the asterisk that mostly it’s because the question doesn’t actually make sense. You’re using the terms wrong. Honestly, the real answer is kind of “no… but, the fact that you’re saying that here is really pretty damn racist.”

      “My other point is that taking on Nazis is the ultimate in virtue signaling. Yeah, they are scum and I don’t support anyone in the march. I even see the argument for removing the statues and am not really opposed.”

      And those are all fine beliefs. BUT that’s not what the president said and that’s the problem. What he said, and what you’re saying is “well, yes… but what about the liberals. There are liberal extremists too.” And I get that. I’ll even, for the sake of this argument, agree that there were some there. That’s not the point. I return to the example of my grandfathers death. Someone is saying “Hey, my grandfather was killed by a heart attack. Can we all agree that having heart attacks is bad?” And your answer is “what about cancer?” and then when questioned about it he expands with “ok fine, heart attacks are bad… yeah, yeah, I get it… But cancer! Why aren’t we talking about cancer! Cancer is really bad. And he had cancer too. All I’m doing is pointing out the cancer. You can’t ignore the cancer.”

      “But there were less than 1000 of these people in a country of millions.”

      Yes… because that’s how protests work. So what.

      “I don’t see them as a credible threat or having any influence. And feeding them and inciting violence is the wrong course to take when there are so many other problems left unaddressed.”

      And you’re wrong. I’ll take the last sentence first. Again, this is a false equivocation (that’s another rhetorical term). And again, I return to the heart attack vs. cancer thing. You’re arguing that because you consider cancer to be a bigger problem we’re somehow helping cancer by worrying about heart disease. Do you not see how stupid that sounds? We can worry about both. And even if someone ISN’T worried about cancer, that doesn’t mean that they’re wrong to be worried about heart disease. And when you insist on drawing the equivocation to the point that you’re ignoring the people who are really broken up about the heart attack, and in fact only mention that heart attacks are bad when pressed (and I mean, both the president here and YOU specifically), the only reasonable response for other people to make is “why the fuck does this dude want to protect heart attacks so much? Why is he pro heart attack? What the fuck?”

      And saying that is yet another reason that people here are calling you racist. Again, I know you don’t like when I point out that “I’m smarter than you.” But really… I STUDY THIS FOR A LIVING. It’s what I do. And I’m telling you… the issue that is happening here isn’t just that there are hateful extremists who we could happily ignore. The issue is that the hateful people are an iconic representation. They’re called extremists for a reason. They are the BIGGEST and most visible examples of a larger systemic problem. Again, I return to your 99.99% vs. .01% mark. Even if that were right, the issue is you’re arguing that See, I’m on the good side because you’re not that .01%. I’m saying I’m not worried about the .01%. I’m worried about the 30% that are casually racist and influenced unknowingly by the the .01%. And you are certainly in there. Honestly, at this point you’re coming across as the top 5% of racists. You are not as bad as the guy from yesterday, who I’d say is at least in the top 1%. But you’re moving in that direction.

      And again… I’m asking you to slow down… think about this for at least 60 seconds before responding. Hell, if you want to really work, give it a good five minutes of serious pondering:

      I know you probably think you’re a good person. Most people do. Hell, the fucking Nazis think they’re doing the right thing. But, you also seem to be very insistent that you aren’t a racist. Now, in this thread… a lot of people…. black, white, and other… have been looking at what you write and saying “jesus, dude… you sound like a fucking nazi.” While your beliefs are your beliefs… Doesn’t it on some level occur to you that, “wait, I’m coming across as a racist to a lot of people. Maybe they’re wrong… but it sure is odd that pretty odd that the one thing they can agree on is that they think I’m being racist. I don’t like this feeling. Why could it be? Hell, Mav, who doesn’t even know me said that I’m in the top 5% of racists in America. That can’t be right. I’m a good person. And Mav is an asshole and a liberal and I know I’m smarter than him. But it is odd that so many people agree with him when I clearly have the more rational point. I guess everyone really is stupid. But what is it that is making SO MANY PEOPLE offended here? And it really is odd that my closest allies here are the Nazis…” And then realize that maybe what racism is, is saying things about race that offend SO MANY PEOPLE.

      Seriously… does the fact that we’re all looking at you and saying “that’s pretty fucking racist dude” not bother you at all?

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 7:30 am

      Tara Polk More to the immediate point, in Charlottesville a white man ran down and killed a white woman. Obvious white-on-white crime there. Why aren’t the white nationalists protesting that and taking care of their own problems before they start talking about protecting statues and establishing whites-only ethno-states?

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 7:35 am

      Because it’s never about the crime, it’s only ever about the skin color. Otherwise they’d do something about domestic terrorism, which is commited by majority whites. Instead of saying they are lone and unrepresentive of us as whole, as they use the other side of their mouths to say things like black on black crime and all Muslims believe in Sharia law. They’re out here praising that guy for running people down.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 8:16 am

      The question was of course rhetorical and a sarcastic reference to the right-wing “black on black crime” talking point and not intended to be answered, but you did so plainly and perfectly. Good.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 9:06 am

      Great responses, but because I’ve seen it mentioned… Has this been posted yet? http://www.nbc29.com/story/36099395/city-of-charlottesville-grants-two-permits-for-counterprotests-of-unite-the-right – The counter protests did indeed have permits.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 11:11 am

      Chris Maverick I will agree with you on most of your points. After reviewing what he said again, trump was wrong to support people who stood with Nazis and KKK. I was wrong not to acknowledge that and really didn’t pay attention to that at first. It was a horrible dumb thing to say. I agree his commentary on statues was stupid and inappropriate. I think trump was a real disappointment here and he let his personal anger towards antifa get in the way of what he really should have said, that there is no place for hate in this country, we are all Americans, and that you should not feed hate with more hate.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 11:25 am

      So see. Here’s the problem. I don’t know you. I don’t know if that was a sincere apology or not. If it was thank you. But you’ve spent the last few days telling everyone here that we were wrong for being offended by the leader of our country siding with nazis. That makes your apology “sound” like it rings false. And that’s you. One random guy on the internet on one isolated incident.

      Compare that to the president who has literally had this exact problem about a dozen times over the time he’s been in office and probably a hundred times since he’s been a political figure. And he’s the president. That is a problem.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 11:32 am

      That said, again if it is sincere. Thank you. Apologizing is not easy.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 12:22 pm

      Jeffrey Kertis in short, a white middle class male cannot inform a black male about what is racist or offensive. You (and I) are part of white privilege, and while we can ask to be helped to understand the black experience of racism in this incident, we do not have a position to tell him whether is was racist or not, because we are far more blind to be able to see it than he. I’m not being flippant here, I’m being sincere.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 1:24 pm

      If there’s a Nazi rally where participants pledge to support the American Cancer Society, I’m fucking not going. I don’t care how ‘good’ the fundamental ’cause’ they’d be supporting might be. Now you can tell me if honoring Robert E. Lee is better than curing cancer or not, but I don’t care *what* in the hell their cause of the day might be — no way in hell am I walking shoulder to shoulder with them.

      Nor would I waste a fraction of a breath of air to say ‘Well, at least they’re supporting a good cause this time.” It is just a plain hell no, NO MATTER WHAT, to joining them in a march no matter what they are doing. How can this possibly be a hard call for anyone?

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 8:43 pm

      Dmitri Schoeman Some towns have actually countered white supremacists marches by pledging donations to anti-Nazi causes per meter the Nazis march. And telling the Nazis they’re doing it. Seems to cut things short. So it’s not impossible that Nazis will march for cancer… UNINTENTIONALLY.

    • avatar
      August 17, 2017 at 2:42 am

      Kristan Overstreet Yes, some of my friends have done that and I approve. But they are *not* marching with them – to go directly against Trump’s spurious claim that there are some ‘good’ people marching with them.

    • avatar
      August 17, 2017 at 10:17 am

      Chris Maverick, what I said was sincere. I do believe the media was unfair to criticize trump for his statement about violence on both sides. Both sides were prepared to fight and I believe using violence to try to suppress ideas you don’t agree with is even worse than hate speech. I can defend that.

      I cannot defend anything trump said two days afterward. He had time to reflect. He did not separate peaceful cointerprotesters from violent ones. He was wrong to try to defend people who marched with Nazis even if they weren’t Nazis. If it was me in the situation, I would have refused to stand along side of them even if they happened to agree with me on a certain issue.

      He was also wrong to defend the statues. I see value in preserving our history but people who say it doesn’t belong in a park, courthouse, or town square are right. I do believe that they should remain in places of historical significance however.

  8. avatar
    August 15, 2017 at 7:03 pm

    Compare that to Obamas response and the media reactions to the Dallas police shootings by someone who was essentially a black supremacist. He did not condemn the hatred but instead said not to judge all on the actions of one.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 7:21 pm

      1) Barack Obama is not the sitting president of the United States of America and he hasn’t been for seven months now. So he’s irrelevant to this discussion.

      2) Since you brought it up. I’ll go there. You’re misunderstanding the Obama comparison. He DID denounce the Dallas shooter. And, for the record, Trump did denounce the driver of the Charlottesville car. They both did the same thing there. The talking point, floated by Fox & Friends this morning, is that Barack Obama said not to judge the entire BLM movement on the actions of one individual. By the same token, Trump said not to judge the entire Nazi movement by the actions of one individual. So the comparison is that both presidents are saying “this group I like is ok, but for some bad apples.” Is that what you believe? Are you willing to say that “The Nazis are okay except for some bad seeds?”

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 7:28 pm

      Trump did not say that the Nazis are ok. He said that antifa was there to cause trouble and the Nazis had a right to peacefully assemble, which they do.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 7:31 pm

      Trump doesn’t even know the word Antifa. He made up his own. Alt-left… you’re deflecting.

      But even to make it clearer… I’ll give you that. His stance was that the Nazis are ok and Antifa isn’t because they had a permit.

      Like my stance here is “Wow, I don’t like how the president is supporting nazis.” and your counterargument is literally “hey, there are worse people than Nazis.”

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 8:47 pm

      How does anything Obama did or didn’t do refute the point that Trump is clearly supporting Nazis? Leave your Whataboutism in the Kremlin.

    • avatar
      August 15, 2017 at 9:31 pm

      Supremacy, noun: the quality or state of having more power, authority, or status than anyone else
      (anti) Fascism, noun: a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
      Black Lives Matter, proper noun: a group working for a world where Black lives are not systematically and intentionally targeted for demise.
      To equate these is disingenuous … worse, total bullshit. One can disagree with tactics of all/any of these groups, but regardless of tactics, one is anti-American (& reprehensible) by it’s very concept.

    • avatar
      August 16, 2017 at 12:04 pm

      Jeffrey Kertis I’m curious if you have a source for the paraphrase you attribute to Obama on the Dallas police shootings. It seems wrong to me, and smells to me like some right-wing mythology. Here is one report on Obama’s post-Dallas statements.

      http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/08/politics/obama-dallas-police-shootings/index.html

  9. avatar
    August 15, 2017 at 8:55 pm

    This whole thing makes my head spin and my stomach sick. The people who defend this shit and make comparisons that are not even close UPSET the hell out of me. They speak like they are so intelligent but all I see is completely ignorance. It makes me want to take a sad nap.

  10. avatar
    August 15, 2017 at 10:14 pm

    Shared!

  11. avatar
    August 16, 2017 at 1:27 am

    I think this is a great thread of comments and responses. I know a few people who could use to read through this. I may send them over to see it (I’m guessing you won’t mind).

  12. avatar
    August 16, 2017 at 2:29 am

    As always, very well written. Thank you.

  13. avatar
    August 16, 2017 at 5:29 am
  14. avatar
    August 16, 2017 at 5:56 am

    heh, I will give you this Chris, at least you are consistent.

  15. avatar
    August 16, 2017 at 9:28 am

    I loved this post. Racism and bigotry are alive and well in America. As a Jew I am appalled by this President. He needs to step down.

  16. avatar
    August 16, 2017 at 10:11 am

    As a pineapple, I think everyone is crazy. So you have the president you deserve.

  17. avatar
    August 16, 2017 at 12:02 pm

    As an aside, Trump didn’t even get things right in that the counter-protests also had permits. Two separate ones.

  18. avatar
    August 16, 2017 at 12:10 pm

    A useful Reddit thread corrects the permits controversy and whether the torch protest group was all nazis or not. https://np.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/6tx8h7/megathread_president_trump_delivers_remarks_on/dloo580/

  19. avatar
    August 16, 2017 at 1:49 pm

    Nicely written.

  20. avatar
    August 16, 2017 at 6:33 pm

    Dope. I gotta share it…..

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